Branden 0:00

All right, Greg. Well, welcome back. thanks for joining us today. we have today, with us, with 20 years of MI experience, and more than that in the plant, the, mechanical integrity and reliability authority for Third Coast, Ms. Melanie Brewer. Thanks for joining us today

Melanie 0:17

Yeah, thanks for having me

Branden 0:19

Greg, how are you doing today?

Greg 0:21

I'm doing great, thanks. Just trying to stay dry. We're getting a bunch of rain in Texas these days, but, uh, we're out of the drought now I hope.

Melanie 0:31

For now. That's right. It'll rain like now, but it won't rain again for the rest of the year, but for now we're good.

Branden 0:52

so Melanie, thanks for joining us. we talked a little bit before we got started, you mentioned that you have 20 years of mechanical integrity experience, but you also mentioned 30-plus years sitting inside the plant. can you give us a little insight into maybe how you got into the kind of the world that we're in and, and how you got started?

Melanie 1:09

Yeah, would love to. It's definitely a crazy path for sure, and not one I ever envisioned I would take too. I think so much of engineering you just learn as you go, and you kinda start fine-tuning your interests as you go as well. But, uh, my journey actually started out, um, in college. I, um, went to the University of Dayton and wanted to do engineering, and back then we were at the height of, um, the original Top Gun movie.

Branden 1:34

M&M

Melanie 1:35

Space shuttle program, all that stuff. So I really thought I wanted to go work for NASA and be an aerospace engineer. And so I got to college and, um, it was funny. Dayton does a neat job of, um... And they, I hope they still do this, but the degree is actually mechanical, and then it's an aerospace concentration. And so anyway, a lot of people were doing that at that time. And, uh, you know, when I got to college, it was interesting. all that stuff was fascinating, and Dayton was a great place to do that because you've got the Air Force Base right there, and there was a lot of research going on, even at, um, UD for the stealth, uh, bomber and different things like that. So we had all these super cool people come in. But when I started taking the classes, I just didn't enjoy them like I thought I would. I just- physics was just the bane of my existence, and weirdly enough, I really missed chemistry. So, um, I changed my major to chemical engineering and just kind of started feeling my way. At that point, I really didn't know what I was gonna do with it, but I just figured I would figure it out on the way. And so, uh, lucky for me, uh, Dayton has, um, a really neat program where it's not just an internship, but they call it a co-op. And so you actually alternate work and school after your third semester. So it adds a year to your degree, but it allows you to get up to five semesters of working, um, as an, like an intern engineer, um, while you're getting your degree. And so it was really cool to get some experience in things that I thought I might wanna do and didn't. And I-- the last place I thought I wanted to be was in a chemical plant. Like, I just... That was never on my radar. And so, uh, my first stint with, um, I started working with BP, uh, back then, and I thought, "Well, this is great. BP's based in Ohio. We've got all these Ohio assets. Like, I'll be able to stay home, like, yay." And so I worked at the Lima plant and just fell in love with the plant environment. Um, I did work some stints in the corporate building, which then was in downtown Cleveland, and it was fun, and I met some wonderful people. But, um, being in a corporate office and especially in a big city, it was just not for me. So, um, they s- the second semester, they actually sent me to this crazy plant in Texas, and I, I still can't believe I did it. I just I'd never really left Ohio, you know, very much. I mean, we, we traveled a little, but, you know, we were farmers, we weren't super worldly. So anyway, uh, came to Texas and thought, "Well, that'll be fun for a couple months," and I just fell in love with Texas. And of course, the plant was the new plant, um, for BP. It was an acrylonitrile plant that was built in, uh, started up in 1981, and so assets were new. Everything was clean and shiny, and everybody wanted to work at Green Lake. And so, um, by the end of your stint, um, with the co-op program, they were like, "Well, when you get to your last semester, you ought to pick the place you think you wanna work in so that they'll remember you, you know, and then maybe you'll get a job." And so I thought, "You know, I do think I wanna try this Texas thing out." And so, um, I Put my last stint, uh, there at the Green Lake plant, and they actually hired me before I went back to school. So I was a l- very lucky senior, uh, engineer because I had a job when I went back, and honestly, I didn't even interview. I, I took the job and never looked back. And so I started full time in '95 at that plant as a process engineer, 'cause I was a chemie, of course. And, uh, I did that for a couple year, but the neat thing and really BP was very good about this, the... You never were pigeonholed, and so at a plant that small you end up wearing a lot of hats. And so, um, all of us in the engineering pool, there were, gosh, about 10 of us I guess back then, and, um, we did process work, we did project work, and everybody just kinda gravitated towards their strength. And so, um, I just found that the process work was interesting, and I was very glad to get to understand the process and all those things, and it gives you a great baseline for everything else you do. But I- my heart was in construction. Building and construction. I wanted to like see it done, and then see how it would run, and so I spent a lot of those early years as a project manager, um, and managed projects up to about $20 million. So they put me in charge of a lot of stuff at a very young age. I... That was kinda dumb on their part, but helped me learn a lot. Got me on the learning curve really, really quick. You know, it's funny, I shouldn't tell my age, but, you know, when you get into your 50s, it's really interesting to look back over your life and just see how it all shook out, you know? I- it just, you, it really puts things in a different perspective, and you just really feel so thankful for just the things you just blindly wandered into, you know? 'Cause you just, you don't know where you're gonna go. And I, I was so, so lucky, um, to start working at that plant in Green Lake because, it was funny looking back, of those 10 engineers or so that I started with, um, two are now CEOs, uh, one just retired as the president of BP America. Um, there's a COO. I mean, I had no idea 'cause we were all just young kids, but like some amazing people I got the opportunity to work with and be mentored to, and all that stuff, and I just, I, it, it was just such a lucky, lucky thing for me. But, um, one of the people that was a huge impact on me at the beginning of my career, uh, was Susan Dio, and she, um, she ended up, she was the one that just retired as the president of BP America. But, um, she was an engineer at the plant when I started, and I mean- Talk about being a mentor. She was just fantastic. You know, there weren't a lot of women coming out in engineering back in the '90s, and so it was kinda rarefied air, and we were all trying to figure out how to make it work because we were all, you know, a little feminist. We might've had a little chip on our shoulder because we knew we were in kind of a career that there weren't a lot of women, and we were just hell-bound to make it work and have that family and have the career and do all the things. And so you go to school, and you start figuring out how to do it, but living the life is, is totally different. And so it was hard to navigate, um, you know, how do you fit in? Do you assimilate into what you've walked into and what you wanna do with your work, or do you still be yourself? Like, trying to find that balance was tough because we didn't have a lot of people to look from. And so I was so fortunate to have Susan because she was, um, you know, a couple years ahead of me or whatever. By the time I got there she had two young kids. But I mean, she was brilliant, and she had all the respect of everyone, and she was just unashamedly herself. You know, she didn't... Some of us felt like we had to dress like the men and talk like the men and, you know, do all that stuff, and she did not And I'm just so thankful I had her because it just sorta helped me figure out kinda where I fit in. 'Cause I loved the work, but it's different, um, working in a man's f- I hate to even say a man's field anymore, but I mean, back then it really was, and there were just a lot of things that you didn't really think about, um, when you got ready to do that. So having her model that for me was really just, was really key. Uh, especially in construction. You know, BP was very good about they don't care if you're a woman. They don't, they don't care about any of that stuff. You just come and work. And so they were very, very good. And so getting you know, put in with an employer that already was good about that stuff was great. But in the construction world it was different It was different. You know, the people that I worked with day to day were extremely supportive, and I, I just can't say enough about that from the operators all the way through to management. Super supportive. It just was a non-issue. But construction hands were a different, uh, beast. And so, um, I got put in charge of projects, um, pretty early. So not only was I a woman, but I was also young. And so a little bit of that kind of goes together. But I mean, I sure didn't hear the men get told things like, "Well, how'd a little girl like you get a big job like this?" Or just, I mean, some... You wouldn't believe the things that have been said to me over the years. And a lot of times it wasn't malicious, they just, they didn't know how to deal with me. You know? they just didn't know. There just weren't a lot of women doing that kind of thing. And so it was, it was pretty interesting, um, early on just trying to figure out, like, gosh, does that make me mad? Or, you know, like, how should I feel about this? And I mean, honestly, you know, you just really have to look past those words to the heart of what they were saying. I mean, there were some women I worked with that just did not wanna be called darlin' or whatever. I'm like, uh, you, you're working in Texas. Like, that's just gonna happen. You, you need to get over that. You know, they're not meaning it to put you down or whatever. I mean, you just, you start eroding away that chip on your shoulder, and you just gotta really get to the heart of things. Now, there certainly were people that were very pointed in their responses. Um, I, I had somebody tell me that I should be ashamed of myself for basically holding a job that is meant for a man because it's taking, you know, food off of his family's table or whatever. I mean, I... There were certainly some malicious comments, but most of them were pretty innocuous, and you just had to decide how you were gonna deal with them. And so navigating that, um, early on was tough, but it just, it really, it makes you realize why you're doing it and do you really wanna keep doing it. And, uh, again, having people to kind of look off of to, to gauge how I should respond to that was really, really helpful. So

Greg 10:41

things, Melanie, that, that jumped out at me when you were chatting there or sharing is about the innocuous things or, like, you might know the guy had a good heart and everything. He's just coming from a different culture. But you gotta remember, that guy would probably take a bullet for you and would probably protect you and do everything he could to help you. Uh, that's different than, than the guys who are just gonna say inappropriate things or... You know what I'm saying? That kind of thing. They're still respectful, you know, but

Melanie 11:13

Absolutely. And quite honestly, that worked to my advantage a lot, too.

Greg 11:19

Why

Melanie 11:20

Selfish to say, but you know, you gotta take the good with the bad. But I mean, a lot of the guys that I worked with, a lot of the, the male engineers or, you know, project people, whatever, like those guys would do things for me that they wouldn't do for them. You know what I mean? I... But I think part of that too is just the way you treat people, you know, woman or man, I mean, everybody wants to be treated like you wanna be treated. And I mean, I just, I was raised that everybody was the same, whether you were the janitor or the president, and you just, you don't treat people bad. And so, you know, if you help people and, and treat them with respect, they're gonna do the same for you. And so, um, you know, I, like I said, the guys always said I had that advantage because people would do things for me that they wouldn't do for them. And whether it was because I was a woman or just because I was nice, you know, I don't really know. But, but there is a fine line with being too nice, and I had to learn that lesson early too. I mean, you, you couldn't just be overly nice, and I think as women, that tends to be our default. You know, we don't wanna make waves, and we wanna keep the peace, and we tend to be a little more touchy-feely about stuff like that. And I mean, that certainly helps with a lot of things, but it can also get in the way. And so you kinda have to figure out how to still be able to stand your ground without giving up too much, and that's just something you have to learn as you go as well. And so being around other women and watching how they would navigate that was super helpful, and I think that's why, you know, even today it's, I'm kinda skipping ahead a little bit but, you know, I kinda overcame a lot of that, you know, not many women 'cause, you know, pretty soon there were a lot of women coming out of engineering school and a lot of women in projects and stuff like that. But then I moved over to MI, and there were none. So it felt like I was starting all over again. And, uh, anyway, you know, I, I hope we'll talk about it later, but we kinda started a group called Women in Mechanical Integrity to do just that, like try to get us all in a room where we can talk about those things. Or even, it's not even so much that it's very pointed or pointed discussions, but it's just having that network so that when you do run into an issue or you do wonder like, "How should I have handled that?" Or, you know, "Give me some advice for, you know, trying to do this job or that job." Like, just having another woman to talk to really, really helps because there's a lot of things that we deal with, I think, that men don't, like how to balance the whole family versus career. And I... There's just a lot of issues, I think. And not that men don't do that, 'cause of course they do. But, um, I don't know, I just, there's a lot of weird mom guilt kind of things that we have to overcome. And so trying to figure out, you know, we were just told in the '80s that you can have it all, and yes you can, but that looks different for everybody, and you have to just try to think about what your path is really gonna look like

Greg 13:54

Right. When we talk about the man-woman thing, of course, we speak in generalities, right? And so I just want to preface what I'm about to say or ask you with that, is, um, you know, some of the positives too are the, the nurturing, uh, nature that women have. And, um, and, you know, most of us men, I think I can speak for most of us men, we don't, we don't talk about that stuff between each other, you know? We don't have any problems. We're doing great. We got the whole family life thing balanced out. Give me another double shot of bourbon, you know? Whereas, whereas I think, at least again, this is just my impression, that the ladies are, are much more open to being open with one another. And it almost sounds like, uh, Women in Mechanical Integrity is a kind of mentoring group where you all have the opportunity to mentor one another on some very important things that are foundational to your performance as an engineer, mechanical integrity person, or whatever

Melanie 14:55

Well, that's exactly right. And so it's just, it's setting up that network for mentoring, and I think, you know, again, being a little bit older, I, I am certainly the product of some very good mentors, and so I'm at that point in my life where I wanna give that back. And so I think I can speak for the other, um, ladies that helped start that, but we're all kind of in that mode, and we do need to have those conversations. And funny enough, men are starting to join our conversations because they do want that outlet, and they do wanna talk through things and, you know, maybe we're just more approachable, you know I don't know. But, you know, we're definitely not exclusive to that, but it just kinda started out

Greg 15:27

it feels safer. maybe it feels safer to them, you

Melanie 15:30

Well, you know, back in the day, they would always do, um... Have you guys ever done a Myers-Briggs assessment?

Greg 15:37

Yes.

Melanie 15:38

A lot of us oldies have certainly done it. That was a big thing to do in the '90s, and actually, it is really interesting. Um, it'd be interesting to do one again, but we used to do those back in the day for, like, a team-building exercise, and honestly, it always really helped to see, like, "Oh, that guy's not a jerk, he's just really introverted," you know, or whatever it was. But, um, oh my goodness, I was always, like, where the engineers were supposed to be, like, in the upper right quadrant, I was always in the lower left or, like, whatever it was. I was always polar opposite of everyone in my group because I was the touchy-feely one. And funny enough, there was another guy who was one of my favorite bosses in the whole wide world and still is just one of my very best friends, but he also was in that touchy-feely quadrant. And so they would bring us in to meetings sometimes just to get that perspective because it is different, and you do have to kinda consider a lot of those things, especially when we started making really hard decisions, um, during, like, you know, we had some downsizing and some different things, and just, like, how do we handle that? And so having those skills can be helpful, you know, even in a business sense about how to roll something out or how to implement change and, you know, all those crazy buzzwords. But, um, yeah, it, it is a different perspective for sure.

Branden 16:44

Do you think you've always had that type of perspective, or do you think coming into the hardened industry kind of created that perspective for you?

Melanie 16:53

Well, that's an interesting question. You know, I mean, I look to my parents, and they're wonderful people that are certainly very in tune and very nurturing and, you know, everything else. And so I would love to say I was born with some of that too, but I mean, certainly you do see those stark comparisons, you know? And, and you do see, um, in industry maybe people handling things not like you want to or, you know, I always, people always wanna complain about having a bad supervisor or a bad boss or whatever. I'm like, "Hey, but sit back and learn from that person," because I mean, yes, it's awesome to have a great boss, right? Like, we all love having a good boss, but I mean, we all sometimes get exposed to the ones that maybe aren't so good. And so what makes them not good, and why is that? And is it the way... Like for me, usually if I ever had a bad boss, it was because they just treated people bad, you know? Or they didn't trust people or, you know, just whatever it was. And so it just then made you think, "Okay, I really don't wanna do that," or, "I don't ever wanna make somebody feel the way that person just made me feel," or you know, it's things like that that you do learn kinda while you're, while you're out there, for sure

Branden 17:56

Yeah. A- as you've been talking, I, I... Right, so I came into the industry 10, 15 years ago. Um, I think probably a little bit of a different time, uh, as far as demographics-wise, and so it wasn't really a thing for me. But, uh, in traveling for work, I mean, I've traveled with, with females, and I noticed different, like... I, I guess, I guess one thing that struck me was, a very well-known person at our company told me that they introduce themselves specifically as an engineer. Whenever they meet somebody new, they specifically introduce themselves as an engineer to be able to create that, like, um, identifier of, "Hey, I am also technically competent." Have you... Right? 'Cause, you know, when you walk, when you walk into a, a, a new room and you w- and, you know, people don't, people are just like,

Melanie 18:45

They wonder why you're there. I can't tell you how many times I got mistaken. I was always the safety girl. Like, "Oh, you must be in safety." Nope. Well, even in a non-industrial, I always, th- they think I'm a teacher.

Branden 18:58

The teacher

Melanie 18:59

I mean, you know, I've gotten that a lot, too. But boy, certainly in industry, like when we were kicking off a new project or whatever, they'd be like, "Oh, are you with safety?" I'm like, "Nope, I'm actually the project manager." And I mean, you wanna talk about making somebody feel bad, you know, which was never my intention. But, um, and so I don't know that I always led with it. I just kinda waited to see what people thought. Because, I mean, the truth will eventually come out, you know, or whatever. But, um, but yeah, it is interesting. And like I said, I think early on that might've made me a little bit madder than it did as you go. I- you just start realizing what matters and what doesn't. I just, I learned a long time ago, I don't really care what people think about me. I mean, I care that they think that I'm nice and I'm respectful and all that stuff, but you know, meeting a, a group of people that don't know me, like they'll either get to know me or they won't,

Branden 19:44

Yeah. Yeah. I do wanna say, uh, my, my group has, uh, a lot of experience with, with WIMI, uh,

Melanie 19:51

Oh,

Branden 19:51

Women in Mechanical Integrity, and I think it's awesome. Um, I think it's awesome what you guys are doing.

Melanie 19:57

been really fun, and it's interesting that, I mean, we just ke- still keep getting more women to gravitate towards this. It, you know, it started out at one of the API summits. Um, I think we decided it was 2017. We were trying to remember how long ago this was, but I, you know, we just started realizing there just weren't many of us there. And so it literally just started as every time we would see a woman in the hallway, we're like, "Hey, come sit at our table." Like, as goofy as that sounds, like, "Come sit at our table at lunch, you know, so we can meet each other." And I mean, I think that first year there were, you know, it was in the teens, like maybe 14 or 15. And so by the next summit, we're like, "Well, let's make this more obvious." And so I think we had balloons at our table or something like, "Come find us at lunch and sit with us." But we just really, I mean, even outside of the summit, we started emailing each other and kinda started some of those mentoring things and everything else. And of course LinkedIn came out, and that was a really great way to start connecting. And API is now really good about putting attendee lists out and everything else. And so, um, API kinda started to see what we were doing, and they were like, "Hey, would you like to have something more formal?" And we're like, "Heck yeah." So the first summit, I think that was in... Gosh, Leslie's gonna be so mad at me 'cause I'm forgetting these dates, but at another summit, maybe it was '22, um, they let us have, like, a Monday evening session that API basically paid for and said, "Hey, come in and do this." And, um, we had a panel discussion, and we didn't really know how it would go or how many people would show up. But we had I think about 80 to 90 women, and some men too, and we had a panel, and so we basically used, like, a polling tool to have people ask us questions. And it was really kinda pretty open format, and we had some tabletop discussions and stuff. And I mean, there was just a lot of appetite in the room to talk about some of those issues. And, um, and also really just, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've recommended somebody's business or knew about somebody's company because of somebody I met at WIMI. So it's been good on the business side too. But, um, it just, it got so big that now we're actually doing it on our own. So we formed a nonprofit, and we're, um, API is still giving us space, but we're, we're footing the bill and, and, you know, getting all the members and all that stuff. And now we're starting to do technical talks, and I mean, it's just really growing. And so we don't know where it's all gonna go. We've got some big plans, but, um, it's just, it's been a really neat kinda grassroots sorta movement. But, um, definitely, like I said, we keep getting more people, so it's definitely something that's needed,

Greg 22:18

I, I love it, Melanie, that, um, 'cause a- and just to weave this all back into the whole mechanical integrity, um, job that we all have, um, is how often... I mean, what year was it that Texas City had their explosion at the refinery? '06. Okay

Melanie 22:38

I was in the Chicago airport when that happened. I had friends at that refinery. That was a, that's one of those things that you remember, like, "Well, here's where I was when I heard about that."

Greg 22:46

Yeah. And reading the Baker report and everything that came out after that, we can talk about this 'cause it's all part of the public record, right? And, um, it, it's amazing how often in these things, these catastrophes, these bad things that happen, how much human factors plays a role in that. And that, uh, uh, is something I think w- especially with, uh, the burgeoning use of AI and all this other stuff, that we've got to maintain the human element in all of this. And, and even some of the management books I've been reading over the last few years, they say, what's the most important thing to a manager?" And, and it's not the bottom line, it's his people. It's his or her people, and

Melanie 23:29

It should be. I don't know that it always is, but it should be.

Greg 23:32

Correct. So please speak to that a little bit, if you would. Um-

Melanie 23:35

It, it is interesting and, you know, AI, uh, boy, it still scares me to death. I've gotta figure out how to use it, but, um, you know, a lot of people are using it. And, in fact, at the last, um, API meeting we just had in Salt Lake City, um, we actually talked about that at lunch one day. Like, I just asked everybody, like, "Are you using it? And if so, how?" And I mean, it was interesting to see how people were actually using it for something good, you know, or whatever. But it just, it, it poses quite a thing, I think, in our industry especially because, you know, there's a lot of misinformation out there, so it's really easy just to ask, you know, c- Copilot, "Hey, what's the damage mechanism from whatever?" And you don't even know what it's pulling from, and so you gotta be super discerning. But it's also pretty good on some things that I've used it for. And so we- we're gonna have to embrace it e- either way. We're gonna have to embrace it, but we need to use it for the things that maybe take away some of the grunt work or the drudgery. Like, stuff that doesn't take a lot of brainpower, like, use it for that so that you do have more time for those people issues, for those conversations. You know what? It's funny. I- Greg, you will identify with this a little bit. Like, when I started out, I didn't even have a computer. You know what I mean? Not at my desk. I mean... And so if you, like, and especially with projects, it was crazy. Like, if you wanted to get quotes and do all that stuff, you literally had to mail them, which we would use FedEx 'cause I worked for BP. We had big pockets. But, like, you would FedEx things out, but then you had to wait, right? To get that stuff back. And so you had a lot of time to think and a lot of times t- t- to think about stuff and to talk to other people and to do those teamwork things. And you know what? Computers are amazing, and I'm certainly not dissing the technology. I absolutely love it, and it's made us so much better. But, um, everybody now expects that instant answer

Greg 25:21

So true.

Melanie 25:21

you should be able to get that. Like, you have all the information at your fingertips. And that, although that is true, um, sometimes you need that thinking time, and I think people look at me a little sideways. I, at the plant, I used to tell them, you know, um, the MI function reported to maintenance, um, which was actually really good, but, um, I know in some places it's not great. But in, at my plant, it worked out really well. But anyway, when they would have a leak or a problem, or we would find something, they would be... They'd all come in my office and they'd be like, "Okay, what, what do we do to fix this? Like, what... W- tell us what to do so we can get the plant back up and running." I'm like, "Well, you need to go away. Give me 30 minutes." And they would just look at me like I had two heads. But I'm like, "Look, I need to think about this, and I cannot do it with all of you standing here telling me all this stuff. Like, give me the facts and let me go away and think about it, and then I will come back and have something thought out. Like, I won't take too long." It is maintenance. Like, you don't get that long. But they could certainly afford 30 minutes, and so, um, they got used to that response from me. But I think that's the key with all of this, is being able to take that breath, you know, whether it's to, um- You know, empower your coworkers or see that someone's struggling or I You know, I, I think the best thing you can do as a manager is to figure out what skills you have in your group, and then get your people tapped into using th- those skills. And if you don't spend any time with them, or if you just sit in front of a computer all the time, you're gonna miss that, and what you end up with are a bunch of really unhappy employees, and you just wonder why they're leaving. You know, I mean, it sounds really basic, but it's just so true, and there are just a lot of people that don't put a lot of stock into that kind of stuff. And so, um, I work for a company now, in fact, I got a quote. It's I work for such a small company that I get texts from the owner. I mean, I just, I lo- in fact, when I talked to him last week about doing this podcast, 'cause I wanted to make sure he was okay with it, he, like, apologized for not calling me back. I'm like, "Okay, really, it's cool. Like, I don't even I shouldn't even have your phone number, and to, like, expect a call, call back is just crazy to me." But I love that this is happening. But he sent out, over the last couple days, he loves to send out, like, inspirational quotes, and he's definitely a big proponent of this. But it was all around, like, matching people to their purpose in life. Like, what is your purpose? You know, for some people, your purpose is your job or your vocation, and it's what gives you passion and it's what, you know, makes you live a good life. You know, I Greg's shaking his head, so he knows what I'm talking about. And so I think you gotta do a good job of putting people where those passions align. And I mean, sometimes you gotta have those hard conversations, like, "You know, I, I don't think this is the job for you. You know, and here's what I see, and, you know, let me help you figure it out," or whatever. But again, if you don't spend the time to invest in that, y- you're never gonna see it. And so I think the, the best functioning teams are those where everybody's tapped in and you're just humming along, you know?

Greg 28:05

Yeah, I call it, uh, playing to their sweet spot.

Melanie 28:08

You got to. Yeah, absolutely. You've got to

Greg 28:11

put 'em where they're gonna have fun, where they feel productive, where they're creative, um, all that good stuff. And like you said, sometimes you gotta tell people, "Wait, you know, I think you'd be better suited over here than there." But

Melanie 28:24

Sure. And it's a hard conversation when you have it, but then when you start helping them and start... And then when they start seeing it, they're just, they're so thankful for it, you know, in the end because no one wants to work a job that you hate. I mean, you just spend way too much time at work to hate it, you know? Not everybody loves it. My husband tells me I live in a puffy cloud. You know, you don't have to love your job. He, his passion is definitely not wor- he loves his j- I mean, he likes his job, like, well enough, but I don't know that that's his passion, you know? And so it's hard to have those conversations 'cause he doesn't understand it. But I mean, this MI stuff truly is my passion. Like, I just, I love it because it takes my engineering skills and my technical skills, which I always wanted to keep. Like, I never wanted to go the management route. I wanted to stay on my tools, but it allows me to use those tools to help people, you know? That's why I love, oh my gosh, I just, I love so much Inspectioneering's motto of guard the gate. You know, like, we're protecting a lot more than just equipment, and it's true. I mean, we're protecting people at the core, but also their livelihood and just everything about it. And so being able to use all those skills for something, to me, that's just so good, it's just, it's awesome. I, this, this MI gig was the best-kept secret ever. You know, when I found it 20 years ago, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. But I mean, it really is a passion of mine, and I know for y'all it is as well

Greg 29:40

Well, it's one of the things that, um, uh, I always try to remind people of is we don't have refineries and chemical plants just for the sake of making gasoline, jet fuel, and plastics. They're to improve the quality of life for people all around the world, and part of that quality of life is keeping people safe in the plants. Um, just, you know, I was just trying to put more of that supply chain together so I could grasp it, the breadth of it better, right? I, I tell you what helped me a lot is those, uh, Energy Transfer commercials. I don't know if you saw any of those,

Melanie 30:15

I don't know about those

Greg 30:17

like, where the expectant mother and the husband show up in the hospital and there's no, there's no equipment, there's no nothing. And they say, "Imagine a world without petroleum products and derivatives." And they said something like, "Thank goodness we do have it," and then everything starts to fill in.

Melanie 30:33

Oh, I

Greg 30:34

that's a cool commercial. Energy Transfer, you can look up their commercial. I

Melanie 30:39

I'm gonna have to look that

Greg 30:39

one on the Super Bowl one year or something, you know? But-

Branden 30:42

Wow

Melanie 30:43

I love that. The kids always laugh at me when there are commercials like that 'cause I just get so excited. Like, they, they can gauge... Like, they know what I'm gonna say. Like, I'm like locked into watching this stuff, and like I turn around, I look at my kids, and they already start saying what they know I'm gonna say. But I just, I love when those links are made.

Branden 30:59

Yeah, yeah. All the time I get people asking me, they're like, "Well, you know, what happens if, you know, electric cars take over and, you know, all these renewable, all the, all the other methods of fuel?" And I'm like, "Well, it's not really gonna affect us that much because, like, we still have plastic." And so all we're, all we would do is we would just re-pipe everything and we'd start making more, more plastics. It's

Melanie 31:23

gonna be a need for that stuff. It's not gonna go away, and I think people who say things like that just don't realize where all their things come from. You know what I mean? They just, they don't know, and that's okay. And I like that they don't know, 'cause that means we're doing our job, 'cause we're not in the news, and it's not, it's not really obvious. So it's, it's all good. But that, think that education is important. I, I know, um, back when I was in college, um, one of the, the, well, the chemical plant that BP had in Ohio, um, was always on the biggest polluters list in the state of Ohio every year because we would deep well our wastewater, and back then deep welling wasn't acknowledged as a safe way to do it. So everything we put in the deep wells was reported as pollution and, uh, oh my goodness, people on my campus would get so wound up and they'd start, you know, carrying signs like, "Don't go to BP," and, "They're the biggest polluters," and all this stuff. Meanwhile, they're wearing, you know, acrylic fiber clothes that, you know, our product made and like, you know, they just, they didn't know. I mean, they just... I just didn't engage back then 'cause I wouldn't have trusted my hotheaded self, but I- they just didn't know. I think that education is important sometimes.

Branden 32:31

yeah. Well, also us lighting the, uh, the lake on fire didn't help either,

Melanie 32:35

No, I mean, believe me, we, we deserved some of that back then. But hey, you know, that's how everybody learned, so anyway. Yeah, there were just a lot of things I didn't know.

Branden 32:44

The, the nu- by the way, the number of times I get... So I'm, I'm from Ohio as well, and, uh, and so when, when people hear that, I tell them the Cleveland area, and they're like, "Oh, man, didn't, didn't you guys, like, light the lake on fire?" I'm like, "That was, like,

Melanie 33:00

Well, yeah.

Branden 33:03

actually, the

Greg 33:03

I think it was in the '70s actually.

Branden 33:06

great. Even that, yeah, I'm, I'm acting like you, Greg, now I'm, I'm a decade behind. Um, but yeah, like, come on, we've come a long way in that amount of time. Like, you should come back to downtown. It's a great place. Clevel- Downtown Cleveland is a great place now.

Melanie 33:20

Yeah, absolutely

Branden 33:21

and everybody's like, "Well, I don't know, man. That, that lake on fire thing, I just, I don't know." And I'm like, "All right, whatever. You don't

Melanie 33:29

That's it. Your loss.

Greg 33:30

hey Brandon, you're probably too young to remember this, but there used to be a commercial on where there'd be an American Indian standing there, like a chief in his headdress and everything, and there'd be a tear

Melanie 33:41

T- Oh, I remember

Greg 33:42

You remember that? And, and, and they'd have those tires in Lake Erie, the trash that was there. That was like, what? How did they...

Melanie 33:51

That's it. It was the littering. I remember that commercial. Some of those things stick with you.

Branden 33:58

Yeah, yeah. So did you ever get over to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base

Melanie 34:03

so I didn't get to the base, but oh my gosh, I don't know if you've ever been, but the Air Force has their museum in Dayton, the Air Force Museum. I- it's better than the Smithsonian. I've been to both. Like, that Air Force Museum is unbelievable, and we would go all the time when I was in college. And they actually have on static display, I'm sure they still have it, but one of the few SR-71s that I think they could still roll out of the building and, like, fly it if, you know, if they wanted to. Uh, they'd have to have a crap ton of fuel and, you know, all the things. But, um, there are just a few of them. But oh my goodness, that was always my favorite plane. So I would go through the whole... I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've been there, but man, that, I just had to get to the Blackbird. I just really wanted to see

Greg 34:43

Was that the reconnaissance one that flew

Melanie 34:45

yes, it flew so

Greg 34:47

of Pigs and all that stuff?

Melanie 34:49

And so until it got up to altitude, it would leak fuel like a sieve because it was designed to seal up as it got higher, right? And so it was just, I mean, it cost a lot to fly it, but oh my gosh, it would fly so high. And I mean, it just, it did just some amazing, amazing things. And I, that was one of the reasons why I thought that's what I wanted to do. And also one of the things in the new Top Gun, um, w- those opening scenes where Tom Cruise is flying what is meant to be touted as, like, the successor to the SR-71, oh my goodness, I about peed my pants. I was so excited. And to see the Skunk Works logo on the side and all these things, I mean, notwithstanding that the Navy would never have a plane like that, but, you know, whatever. Like, it was still like, oh, that scene was just... I, then I knew the movie was gonna be okay 'cause I was really not wanting to watch it 'cause I thought they cannot do as good as the original. But I, they did a really good job, I have to say. But oh man, that, like, supposed SR-72 is amazing. So of course all of us were googling, like, is that real? And unfortunately it's not, that we know of. But it sure was cool.

Branden 35:53

Yeah,

Melanie 35:53

yes, that Air Force Museum is neat if you've never been.

Branden 35:56

It's really cool. It is. It's really cool. Greg, I think the actual, like, designated defense mechanism for the, for the 71 is only listed as afterburners. It's something like that. Like the, like there is no d- It's, it's literally, it just goes faster, uh, than anything else, and, uh, they just outrun everything.

Melanie 36:15

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Branden 36:17

Yeah. It's so cool. I did a lot of re- I did a lot of reading on that thing.

Melanie 36:20

still gives me goosebumps

Greg 36:21

do you guys remember how fast it went? How many Mach two or...

Melanie 36:26

I should know. I don't remember. It's been

Greg 36:28

just

Melanie 36:28

long since I've looked at that stuff. My son will be very disappointed. He like, we call him Mr. Fun Fact. He just knows all kinds of random things like that. But, um, 'cause he, of course, you know, my husband and I were very into that stuff, and so then of course my kids kinda grew up around all that too, so

Branden 36:42

Here, I'll get it here. So 3.2.

Greg 36:44

3.2 That, does that

Melanie 36:46

a big deal back

Greg 36:47

times the speed of sound?

Branden 36:48

Yeah, so 2,193.167 miles per hour was the, was the top speed.

Melanie 36:57

Yeah

Branden 36:58

In specific conditions, the max design limit was 3.3 at cruising altitude up to 85,000 feet.

Melanie 37:05

Yeah

Branden 37:06

so more than double where, you know, standard commercial aircraft

Greg 37:11

Amazing

Melanie 37:12

It is amazing. And then you think of the engineers that designed that. Like, I, sometimes I am so humbled 'cause I just feel like they were so much smarter back then. 'Cause they didn't have all the tools that we have today, you know?

Greg 37:22

That's true

Melanie 37:23

man, they're... You know, every time I go out to the, um, Johnson Space Center or something, you know, you walk past that original mission control of, like, Apollo era, and I'm just, I just sit there in absolute awe of the engineers that used to sit in that front row with their green paper and their slide rules. And I mean, having to make these crazy decisions on the fly by calculating. I mean, I just, I would've crumbled under the pressure. Like, there's just no way. I, they just, to think about how smart they were, like, to be able to think on their feet like that, it's just, it's really humbling

Greg 37:54

They used slide rules and all kinds of stuff back then, Right.

Branden 37:58

I, uh, I, I, I saw an interview with one of the, one of the pilots from it, and, you know, all those Air Force pilots are all big personalities and stuff. And, uh, so he's, he's much older now, but he still tells the story really well, and I'm not gonna do it justice. But basically, there's, there's a story about how They were flying, like, across the coast or something, and they, they caught onto maybe a regional frequency. And there was a guy, one of... There was like a, a, a crop dusting pilot who wasn't doing very well with like on the radio stuff. And, uh, like a commercial pilot jumps on, and he's trying to be a big shot, and he, he... You can ask for like a speed check. And, uh, and so the commercial pilot, uh, you know, he's like, "What's the, you know, give me the speed check for myself." And, and the, the tower radio's back, you know, "560 miles per hour," or knots or whatever it is. And then because it was Kansas City, in that area, there were some fighter jets. And so the fighter jet guy gets on, and he, you know, he's acting like, "Uh, can I get a speed check?" And the regionals guy goes, uh, you know, "900." You know, he's going Mach 1 or something, so, you know, 800 or 900 and whatever. And, and so then out of nowhere, the, uh, the SR pilot jumps in. He couldn't, couldn't stop himself. Jumps in and goes, "Uh, can I get a speed check, please?" And, and just blows these people out of the water. "Uh, 2,000 and..." you gotta look it up. The, the interview is fantastic. He does a much better way of telling the story, but it just, you know, just how much, how much different in a different world they're in.

Melanie 39:32

Absolutely.

Branden 39:33

you know, so yeah.

Melanie 39:35

were amazing too, to be able to jump into those things. Like, especially you think about the test pilots, like I'm just always so fascinated by that. And to think about people like Chuck Yeager, you know, those guys that just jumped in those things not knowing if they were gonna make it back, you know? But somebody has to be the first, and they always wanted to be the first to do it, but they also might have been the first to die. So I, I... Man, just the bravery. I, I'm sure there's things like that happening today, but it just, I don't know, that stuff from then is just larger than life. It really is

Branden 40:04

Yeah. It, yes, yes. So, okay, so f- but physics ended up not being, physics, physics ended up not being the thing for you. So can, can So okay, so now, so, so let's fast-forward a little bit. So you went into projects. what was the, the real catalyst then for you switching from, from projects and construction over to the MI world?

Melanie 40:23

So there were several things, but it really kind of started from the beginning. Um, I mentioned Susan Dio, um, when we started and how she was just an amazing mentor to me, and she certainly was. But when I met Susan, she had three little initials after her name on her business card, and it was CWI. And I was like, "What is that?" And then she starts telling me about it. I'm like, "Wow!" Like- That sounds super cool. I didn't really know what it was, but like to be an expert in welding and I just, I, I don't know why, that just always was an interest. And so she actually found a class for me that the Ohio State University used to put on. They call- it was NEMJET, and I cannot remember what that acronym stands for. But anyway, they used to have these week-long, um, seminars for people like engineers, metallurgists, whatever, where you could go and you could learn about the welding processes, you could learn about welding metallurgy, and then at the end they talked about nondestructive testing. And so she actually sent me to one of those, um, in my very early years 'cause she knew I was interested in that kind of stuff, and oh my goodness, that week just opened up my eyes. Like I was so fascinated just by welding metallurgy and just metallurgy in general, which to me is not that different from chemistry, so it didn't seem too weird of an offshoot. But, uh, the nondestructive testing, all that just sounded super cool. Of course, at the time I had no idea what I would do with that, uh, 'cause that wasn't a traditional path for a chemical engineer for sure, and at that time I was just starting into projects. But it just kinda started that interest for me. And so then, you know, I get into projects and I loved construction, and so I just, I really did always gravitate towards the welding activities and, you know, what were they doing and, um, you know, we, the chief inspector at the plant that I worked in, and oh my goodness, he had that job for like 40 years. I don't, you know, it, by the time he retired I think it was 42, and most of that was in, um, inspection. And, uh, anyway, I just was so fascinated by the work that they did and so I, boy, any time they were out there doing something I just was like a pest. I was just right there with them, and they were gracious enough to explain to me what they were doing and, you know, all that stuff. And so I always told, um, Scott Page was his name, I always told Scott like, "Oh my goodness, when you ever retire I'm taking your job." And it just was the running joke, like oh my gosh, like you have the coolest job at the plant, like I'm totally taking your job. I didn't really know what all it entailed, but it just looked really cool. And so lo and behold he got ready to retire. This was in 2005 and, um, my boss at the time said, "Hey," this is right after they asked me to be an environmental engineer. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, no. That is not in my gifting. I do not wanna do that. If you're gonna fire me I'll do it, but like I really don't wanna do that." He's like, "No, no, no. We just wanted to ask." But he came back like a week or two later, he said, "You know, you always tease Scott that you're gonna steal his job when he retires. Like are you serious?" I'm like, "Sure. You know, I mean if, I don't know this is a serious conversation." He's like, "Well, he says he's gonna retire in the next two years. Like if someone's gonna take that job they need to spend some time with him. Do you wanna do it?" And I was like, "Yeah, I do. I really, really do." I mean, I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but I... Man, I- it was like a dream come true. So of course, now I'm, like, drinking water out of a fire hose. Like, I'm trying to figure out what it is that he's doing, and it was really cool that I did get to spend almost two years with him, which is unheard of nowadays. Usually, the guy leaves, and then they're like, "Oh, crap, we need to fill that position." And you know what I mean? There's never any transition. And so that I got to spend so much time with him was amazing. And so the first thing I did was go get certs. So within two years, I had my CWI. Um, I think then I did 570 and then 510, and of course, I was the only woman in all those classes, um, which that was okay. Um, the guy that I took the classes from was down in Portland, Texas, at Baseline Data, which a lot of people would do their certs through Baseline Data. But, um, J.W. Rawls is a piece of work, and he just thought it was so cool to have a woman in his class. But, um, and he gave me a lot of crap. But, uh, you know, I did good. And so, uh, anyway, uh, got out with those certs, kinda had a better idea of what I was doing, and then Scott transitioned to a capital project, which was gonna be his segue out. Um, still there at the plant, though, and then I got to sit in his chair, and boy, I... It was crazy. And then within, um I don't know, a coup- like a month or so, maybe even before I sat in his chair full time, um, his unit inspector who worked for a contractor, we did everything with nested contractors, but, um, he decided that he just didn't think he could work for a woman. And so he left and I was really feeling a bit adrift, but one of the welders that had been welding at the plant for years and years, I think we started at about the same time, um, he was welding, I was an engineer, but he had left and decided he didn't want to weld till he was blind. So he went and got his certs and was starting to do inspection stuff. So when the unit inspector left, I'm like, "Oh man, I wonder if Robert will come back." And, uh, sure enough he did. And man, the two of us just had to figure it out. Um, at that time it was, uh, me and Robert and then Clay Ford, another one of my colleagues, and Clay did all the, um, the on-stream stuff. Um, and Robert and I just had to figure out how to do the rest. And, um, we it was, well we, I guess we had another guy back then too. But anyway, there was four of us and then they downsized me to three, but we had to do everything. I had to go get level two certs. Um, they wouldn't let me do UT 'cause I was horrible at it and not a very good writer downer. They used to always give me crap about that. But, um, but PT, MT, I mean we had to do all the inspections ourself and all the welder surveillance for the contract welders that we had on site. So talk about trial by fire. And so, um, and just to give you some perspective, I think that plant had about 500 pieces of fixed equipment, um, about 700 PSVs, you know, several storage tanks, like all this stuff, but it was no slouch. So I mean, you, we just had to figure it out and we did. And so, you know, Robert and I learned together and I'm really proud to say that he's now the chief inspector, um, at a plant as well. So we, we did good. But those first few years were, they were hard. But, um, you know, Scott had a pretty solid program of, um, at least the internal type stuff and the on-stream, and they were still trying to figure out how to do on-stream equipment, but, you know, at least he had the foundation started. And so I did inherit something that was very well organized and very good and then just built it up from there.

Greg 46:41

Melody, did you guys rely on or get any support from corporate?

Melanie 46:44

Uh, not so much. I mean, certainly in the formative years, I don't wanna discount that. I mean, my God, we had the best, like welding people. I mean, a l- they all ended up working for Equity, so you know 'em all. You know, Bob Young, you know, all those guys. Like, I mean, they became what is now Equity, and so we had a wonderful, um, central engineering support. But by the time I took over the MI stuff, all that had been divorced, which is why I've always been so tight with Equity because those were my people, and then they remained our resource, you know, 'cause they had all the knowledge

Greg 47:17

I remember visiting that plant once and there was a guy, gray-haired guy with a... If I remember right, a big mustache named Ted Schultz, and he was a corrosion materials guy, I guess, from corporate, and we were out there looking at something. I can't remember what it was,

Melanie 47:32

But yeah, we had awesome resources, and then they all kinda got taken away, and so, you know, it was a year or so before equity kinda really got their feet under 'em, you know, or whatever. And so then we could start using them again. Not that we didn't call Bob and everybody else, like when we needed something. Um, but, uh, but yeah, it, we didn't really have much support, so we just had to figure it out. And I think Green Lake was notorious for being the cowboys anyway, and so we just always kinda did our own thing 'cause we were so far out of the fold from everybody else that was in Ohio, Pennsylvania, you know, that kinda area. So

Greg 48:02

Yeah

Melanie 48:02

I think part of that was by design

Greg 48:04

Well, I'm glad you brought that up though about Bob, 'cause I think a lot of our listeners probably don't realize that the genesis or the nucleus of Equity was the former BP Ohio corporate headquarter staff in Cleveland.

Melanie 48:21

Oh, yeah. And so, you know, for us, that just became our... It was still Central Engineering to us, you just had a different name.

Greg 48:28

Yep.

Melanie 48:29

You know, I mean, we still used them, and I mean, they had all that knowledge. You know, you talk about, you know, it was funny, like, this whole evolution of these MI programs into, like, damage mechanism assessments and all that stuff. I mean, I really never knew... I mean, I knew what our damage mechanisms were in an acrylic plant, but I never really knew any of the other ones. I didn't need to, and our damage mechanisms weren't that crazy. I mean, we had cyanide cracking and some other stuff, but they solved those really before I got there, you know? And so I never really had to deal with true damage mechanism type issues where we didn't know what caused the problem we had, because if we had an issue, even if we did have something that maybe was weird or, um, you know, a lot of times we were like, "Do we really need to post-weld heat treat that?" Or, you know, you start making, like, vessel repairs and stuff like that, it starts to get a little heady. But then you could just call Bob Young or somebody like that, and they could just tell you off the top of their head, "Oh, do this, oh, do that. Weld with this rod." You know? It was just amazing, and so it was just so nice that we were still able to maintain that relationship even as, um, you know, everybody became equity

Greg 49:32

That's a good point because I often think I came from a big chemical plant background too, and, um, I realized that for especially continuously run chemical operations, um, you don't have all of the things that can change, like changing crude slates and, you know, that you'd have in a refinery and other things that are constantly changing. So I, yeah, that, that's pretty cool to... Yeah, I was gonna say, that's

Melanie 50:00

you lazy.

Greg 50:01

work in a plant like that

Melanie 50:02

yeah. No, it is. I mean, I used to tell them it was boring, so they used to get so mad at me when we would find, like, acid grooving in the sulfuric acid tank or, like, you know, I would just get so excited about that stuff or, you know, we'd find cracking somewhere where we weren't expecting it. And of course everybody's like, "Oh my gosh," like, "What are we gonna do?" I'm like, "Okay, this is really cool." Like, or I would come in during a turnaround and say, "Well, we kinda found something." They're like, "Please don't smile when you say it." I'm like, "I can't help it. It's interesting." 'Cause I mean, nothing really like that hap- it didn't happen very often, so I wasn't really exposed to a lot of that. But then as things started to evolve and these MI programs started to get more involved with them and, you know, we of course wanted to do that as well, like, it was just interesting to learn about a lot of that stuff 'cause I just really was spared a lot of it, which I'm thankful for now because I needed to get my feet under me you know, when I first took it over. And so being able to add that skill later, um, in my MI journey was, was great, you know, 'cause I had all the rest of it, um, you know, behind me

Branden 51:02

moving from projects where you're, you're designing or you're working through the design and the actual construction, and then moving downstream of that process to the maintenance and the, inspection side, what was maybe some of the more eye-opening things for you that, uh, that you ran into?

Melanie 51:19

Uh, just the speed. You know, everything happens pretty fast, so you've gotta be ready to move. And I, I'm a thinker, so I like to have that time to think, and so I had to learn how to think on my feet. Not that you didn't have to do that with projects, and especially with construction, but the issues weren't as complicated then. You know, it was more just about like how do we save time, or that's gonna cost too much or whatever, but you still had time to think about it. But when you're talking about a running plant, um, you know, that timeframe gets greatly shortened, especially if it may be something that could cause a safety problem or whatever. And so, um, getting into that mode was different. But then I also had to fight some different battles. You know, when you're a project manager, pretty much what you say goes, and everybody just has to follow your s- your lead. And of course, obviously, you know, you have a team of people around you that help you make those decisions. It's certainly not a dictatorship. But, um, when you get over into maintenance, you're just one voice screaming for that same pot of money that everybody else is screaming for. And so you really have to learn how to pick your battles. And I used to get so frustrated early on 'cause I'm like, "Well, we found this problem, and you, you gotta fix it," you know? Or, "If you don't fix this, it's gonna become a real problem." And you know, like, you know, especially with things like painting, you know, or insulation. I mean, I know that's gonna become a real problem, but you know, to the guys in maintenance who are like, "Yeah, yeah. Like right now I'm trying to keep this pump running," or, you know, whatever. And so it just, those things kinda slip. And then, you know, we go and inspect it again in the next five years, and it's just gotten worse, you know. And so then you put it on the list again, and they're like, "We'll get to that eventually." And so, um, you know, knowing when to really bring things to the forefront in a way that- makes them take action. I, I- it sounds like I'm trying to manipulate people, which is not at all what I'm trying to say. But, um, but you know, you're just one voice clamoring for that same resource or that same pot of money, and, you know, my husband was always really good at telling me about that 'cause I'd come home sometimes so frustrated. He's like, "Hey, you know what? I have to make decisions like that too, and I have a you at my plant, and they're telling me the same things. But I also have this issue, and I know that if we don't make this sales quota, like, you know, there's gonna be repercussions or, you know, we've got a reliability target we have to hit or, you know, they're crunching my maintenance budget and I've got to pay for people." You know like, you know, when you think about fixed costs, I mean, salaries are like the biggest part of that, and so you've got to pay for people and you've gotta pay to keep the doors open. And so sometimes those things, although they are all important, those guys in management have to kinda decide, well, what's more important? And then it kinda brings in this whole idea of risk which, I mean, we have to deal with that a lot. And so that really kinda taught me what that was all about. You know, like is that a big risk compared to some of these other things? And so you learn to think in terms of risk, and of course, that's the language of management. And so, um, sometimes they... Well, all the time they were willing to take risks that I wasn't. But I think that's how we're all wired at MI. I mean, we're definitely on the low end of the risk scale and typically management's on the high end, and so you just hope that somehow you're gonna meet in the middle. But when you could frame those conversations in terms of risk, it was just a much better conversation. And so, um, you just- that's something that you just kinda had to learn, and that was never something that entered into my mind, um, as even a process engineer or certainly not projects

Branden 54:37

H- how did that language kinda come into your plant? How did, how did you guys start talking about risk?

Melanie 54:43

It started coming in late. You know, back in the early days, especially as BP, we were just kind of like the afterthought. BP was like, "Here is a bunch of money, just go away." We really didn't have to... I mean, obviously we had budgets and stuff, but it, it wasn't really, like, there wasn't a lot of accountability and like, oh my gosh, like, you have to meet these budget targets or else, uh, back in those days, which was really nice. But, um, when we got bought by INEOS, um, that all changed because each plant had to basically provide its own balance sheet. And so the money got really, really tight, and that's how they make their money, and I understand that. But it was a really hard transition for all of us that were just used to having the big pockets of BP. And so, um, you, you got only so much money, and every year it just seemed like you got less and less and less as the plant got older and older and older. And so for me, those things were at cross purposes. And so when you just get a certain amount of money, you got to figure out how you're truly gonna spend it on the fixed side and on what capital improvements... when I left it was 42 years old, so I mean, certainly we were replacing assets and all. That was a huge conversation 'cause that not only caused quite a shutdown timeframe, but also was expensive. And so y- then you, it really kind of forced you into, well, how do we prioritize these things? And I mean, everybody thinks their agenda is the most important agenda, so you have to try to find a language that, like, brings everybody's agenda together. And I mean, that, that is where the risk component stuff comes in. So we got really good at developing those matrices. You know, of course, now it's just a matter of fact, but back then that was something very new to us.

Greg 56:23

Melanie, what again did you say the lady's name was

Melanie 56:26

Susan Dio. She's gonna be so mad 'cause I didn't even tell her I was gonna talk about her. But, um, I mean, Susan is amazing, and even if you looked at her LinkedIn now, she's still very involved, and she's actually still very involved in women's issues as well

Greg 56:37

And didn't you say she had a CWI?

Melanie 56:40

She did. Yeah. She was one of the first women. I mean, man, you think when she did it, she had to be one of the very few. I would love to know what her number was, but, 'cause that would've been back in '94. That was a long time ago

Greg 56:52

So the reason I ask is I'm connecting some dots here, I hope they're justifiably connected. But, um, I have run across in my 40-plus-year career of a few people who have gotten to very high levels in corporations that had a, let's call it a mechanical integrity type background, um, of some sort. And I've seemed to see a higher appreciation for what we do on the fixed equipment mechanical integrity and reliability side I usually see those people who are plant managers or let's say vice presidents or maybe a refining vice president or even a CEO, uh, that has a background that touched mechanical integrity at some point in their lives, that they get it. They get it and, and, and you usually see that reflected, right, in the decisions that are made. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Melanie 57:48

I, I don't know if I can speak to it, but, I mean, certainly I think a good manager understands all the pieces that go into, I mean, especially at that level, like, you really do need to understand how all that fits together and how all of that contributes to the bottom line. And so certainly having an understanding of how your equipment works and just understanding even just some of those, the things that we take for granted, but just like the risk-based type inspection work and, um, you know, thinking of age of assets and how they've been maintained. I mean, all that has to factor into your decision somehow because you're tasked with keeping everything running.

Greg 58:22

Yeah. You're gonna make trade-offs, right? You're gonna

Melanie 58:24

that's right. And so if you're gonna make trade-offs, you better understand what you're trading. And I think sometimes the problem is those people that are making those trade-offs, they just, they don't understand that stuff, and they don't realize what they're trading, and then suddenly there's a major failure, and you're left holding the bag. You know, w- when there's a big failure at a plant, it's, it's rarely the inspectors that get put in jail or, you know, fired or whatever. It's, it's always the big- the biggest boss they can get their hands on. And so, I mean, I think for them to understand those ideas or to know in their group who understands those ideas and to tap on them sometimes to ask, I think that, I mean, you know, you certainly could be a lot more successful in your decision-making

Greg 59:04

Thank you. I agree

Branden 59:06

do you think you've seen a shift in, in that leadership? I mean, Melanie, you've got a lot of contacts in, different areas. Do you think that in those leadership type areas, do you think that you're seeing people actively wanting to learn now about risk or is it more of a necessity that, like, they just have to?

Melanie 59:26

I don't know. You know, I do know a lot of people, but, I mean, you think about me being stuck in the same plant forever, and now I'm working for a really small player. I, I don't know that I see that so much. But, I mean, certainly INEOS understands risk, and a lot of their people, they know about it. Whether some of them understand it fully or not, I, I can't really speak to that. But, um, it's certainly part of the conversation, and it's one that I'm bringing with me to Third Coast because we do have to think a lot of times in terms of risk even there. Um, you know, it's much smaller, and it's on a much smaller scale, but, I mean, we still have money that we want to spend wisely. And, you know, we're implementing these MI programs and everything else, but that doesn't mean that we have to fix everything we see right away. I mean, certainly there's parts of my new plant where we're just mixing glycols, you know or brake fluid. I mean, yes, we've got some issues there, but is that what we need to focus our time and energy on? No, it isn't. I mean, when you... Right now I'm trying to build a program from the ground up, so everything's an issue in my mind.

Branden 1:00:27

Thank you for listening to Upon Further Inspection, a Mechanical Integrity podcast. This episode was co-created by Inspectioneering, and CorrSolutions. Our producers are Nick Schmoyer, Jocelyn Christie and Jeremiah Wooten. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal or professional's advice. Listeners should seek their own qualified advisors for guidance. If you enjoyed this episode. Please join us next time wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until then, stay safe and stay informed.