Branden 0:00

Well, welcome back. we have, uh, a guest with us today, a senior corrosion engineer from Babco Refinery, uh, Mr. Abdulrahman Al-Rumaiidh. There we go. hopefully I didn't totally butcher that. I tried it a couple times before we started here. So, uh, thanks for joining us. Greg also here. How's it going, Greg?

Greg 0:20

Going great, thanks. I hope y'all are doing great as well

Branden 0:24

Yeah. Yeah. So, this is a fun one. we've linked up here with, with Abdulrahman because, uh, he has, uh, been pretty active on LinkedIn and, and interacting with us, and so we, we reached out and asked if he wanted to be on the podcast, and, um, luckily he ac- he accepted. So we, we appreciate it. Thanks for, thanks for joining us today.

Abdulrahman 0:43

No, th- thank you for inviting me and, for the opportunity to just, chat and, uh, converse about, the thing that we love, which is mechanical integrity

Greg 1:08

That's right. And thank you, Abdulrahman, for being part of the inspectioneering community as well. Uh, we really appreciate that

Branden 1:16

Yeah. So

Abdulrahman 1:18

uh, inspectioneering is, is really one of the sources that I, refer always back to. It's really insightful. it's not really technical like, same as scientific papers or... But it gives you the philosophy and the concepts that drive the codes and the, the standards that we follow and try to comply with. So, uh, inspectioneering really is a, is a useful resource

Greg 1:42

Well, thank you. And, and we do try, uh, to help people, uh, understand why they're doing what they're doing and how to potentially do it better or what all the various ways are they can attack a problem, uh, what their benefits are, what their limitations are. That's very important too. So for you and for everyone out there in the inspectioneering community, please keep your ideas coming, keep the articles coming, uh, participate in the comment section for articles and so forth. Uh, we really appreciate that. So thank you

Branden 2:14

we talked a little bit before and, and I've, uh, I've obviously stalked your, your LinkedIn page a little bit. Um, so you, you started out as a, a mechanical engineer, or you, I guess you are a mechanical engineer by, uh, by education. What made you wanna get into engineering to start with?

Abdulrahman 2:30

well, I mean, uh, I, I had, interest in, uh, let's say crafts and, dismantling toys and, uh, things since I was a, as a, as a kid. So I think naturally I was leaning towards, uh, mechanical engineering. So I went to the University of Bahrain, uh, which is our, local university, I had a BSC in mechanical engineering, and it was, uh, really useful. one of the benefits that I got from studying as a mechanical engineer, maybe it's not the, the technical, the formulas and the way to solve a problem, but it's the skill on how to tackle an engineering problem. So how do you think about it? What inputs, what assumption d- do you need to, consider? what are the, the tools that you would use to, to think about the problem and, and solve it, hopefully.

Greg 3:22

Yeah, critical thinking skills.

Abdulrahman 3:24

Exactly. Exactly.

Branden 3:25

you mentioned taking toys apart. this is where my brain starts going. what good stories would, uh, would your family tell about, uh, some- something that you did back then?

Abdulrahman 3:33

Well, one of them was, I torn apart a, a radio, uh, trying to, to see the internal components of a radio and then my father saw the, the radio dismantled and he was like, "What is this?" So But I, I was happy later on when I, uh, assembled the radio back again, and I could hear the white noise that it's not a radio anymore. It's not receiving signals, but at least that noise was satisfying enough, yeah,

Greg 4:00

That's why you didn't become an electrical engineer, right?

Abdulrahman 4:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Branden 4:06

that's funny. That's funny. So, when you were in school, um, was there, were there any classes, were there any courses that you really gravitated towards?

Abdulrahman 4:15

fluid mechanics, uh, thermodynamics, material science was, one of the most interesting topics to me, and, uh, that are re-relevant to my profession at the moment. Uh, I don't know that at some point my job will be to, apply these, principles and concepts, but, uh, here we are

Branden 4:35

What, what was it? 'Cause I, I took materials. I think everybody takes, right? You take a, a breadth of, of, uh, classes. And I always thought the materials classes were interesting as well. Um, my school that I went to did a lot with semiconductors, so we learned a lot about, like, the, the silicones, the geraniums, the, the doping and all that stuff. What was it about the materials, classes that, that was interesting to you?

Abdulrahman 5:00

what we talk mostly was about the metallic, uh, material science. So, you know, you know, we talk about the microstructure of material, the body-centered, face-centered, uh, structures of material, about mechanical properties of, material. we delved a bit into polymers and, ceramics and other types, but the, the main focus was on metallic.

Greg 5:24

Metallurgy. That's great, great stuff.

Branden 5:27

Yeah, it's a great pre-rec or a great, uh, starting point then for, for everything else. It's so crazy to me to think about, like, you know, on the screen they blow everything up and there's all that space. But, you know, when you think about the damage mechanisms that we have and how hydrogen can somehow find its way into those little open spaces, it's, it's crazy to me that it's that, that much smaller and that it can work its way in there and obviously cause bad problems

Abdulrahman 5:53

one of the chapters that was in the textbook I remember was about, uh, corrosion. We didn't take that, uh, chapter part of the, the study, but, later on after I, I j-joined the Babcock inspection, I went back to the textbook, so... And then I, I noticed that we had that corrosion chapter, and I was like, "Why didn't we take that, uh, part of the, the study? It's, uh, it will be useful." But anyway, I have the textbook, and that's one of the benefits of, you know, going to school and, l-learning a topic systematically, having a syllabus, is that you get familiar with the textbooks and, uh, what resources, you have you can't, learn everything and remember everything, but at least you have to know the resources that will be useful for you. So if you have a question, where should I go to, to answer that question?

Branden 6:41

you go to AI now, right?

Abdulrahman 6:45

exactly. That thing is scary. It knows a, it knows a lot. I think too much, yeah.

Greg 6:52

Is that called overthinking it? Is it? Ab- Abdulrahman, a question. Were there any, um, particular professors or instructors you had in school that come to mind that were influential in your career?

Abdulrahman 7:06

it's interesting because actually the professor that gave me that, material science, topic, one of the skills that he was, insisting on learning was report writing.

Greg 7:18

Hmm.

Abdulrahman 7:19

And he was I mean, especially the first assignment that, uh, was given to us was, I remember I gave like three revisions for the report just in order to, to refine the, the table of content, how I refer to, to references, how's the, the captions and, you know, all the, the formatting and how to present a technical report. So, till now, I remember this as one of the, the most, uh, beneficial skills that I got, through school

Greg 7:47

Yeah, it's also a discipline, I think, 'cause most people I know hate to write reports, but they're important, and it does take a discipline to sit down and do that right. Um,

Abdulrahman 7:57

Exactly.

Greg 7:58

Awesome

Abdulrahman 7:59

Especially now with the, I mean, inspection and, uh, corrosion with failure analysis, that report writing is a must. So having that skill, with you is really helpful

Greg 8:10

So obviously one of the keys to writing a good report is to being a good communicator. How has that helped you in your career?

Abdulrahman 8:18

so I remember one of the, the skills, I remember I learned during school was you would write the introduction after you have written all the, the information that you are hoping to deliver. So that gave me a really beneficial skill in such that, you would summarize the ideas after writing them, you know? And, and before that you have the, the table of contents, so you know what you are going to write about. It will give you some kind of guideline on what to write, and then you summarize what you have, written in the report. So, again, when, I'm writing now inspection reports, for example, it's really important for the writer to, put himself in the reader's shoes. So how will the reader understand and how he will receive that information? will it make sense for him when, when he's reading or no, you, you need to explain something even further? Because when the inspector does the inspection, he saw it, uh, he recorded, but he's the one who saw it. So you need to write the reports somehow in a visual way that will be, comprehensible by the reader

Greg 9:29

That's great advice. I love it. It's very good. Yeah, I remember in journalism class where for news stories, which is what we're talking about here, facts and so forth, that you tell the story three times in what you write. You tell it in the first paragraph, and then you tell it in the body of the story, and then you tell it in the conclusions. Um, so anyway, that brings back some good memories for me from a couple of eons ago. Uh.

Branden 10:01

Surprised you remember that far back, Greg.

Greg 10:02

I am too. I'm just having one of those moments, you know?

Branden 10:07

On your game today.

Greg 10:10

Oh

Branden 10:10

that's great. So, Did you do any internships or did you do any co-ops or anything like that, um, during school?

Abdulrahman 10:18

so, um, during school, I, I did an internship in, uh, in the upstream section, the up- upstream sector. So I had a, like a, a two-month, internship. and another one was in the, uh, the dry dock for shipbuilding, which we have here in Bahrain as well. Yeah, and, and it's, uh, it's really amazing. I mean, when you go there and, and you see the ships and you see the scale of like massive, uh, components that they have in ships. Like, I remember, looking at the chain that is used to, to pull the, the ships into the dry dock or to, to align it, uh, and to position the ship within the dry dock and the single, piece of the chain, it's like it's so big that you can sit on it It's, it's really huge. and when you see the machining equipment, like the turning machine compared with the, the normal machining tools that we have, it's really massive. It's really interesting to see in front of you

Branden 11:14

It, it's crazy how big those components are, and then you think about the, uh, the machinery itself that can move all of that. Um, it's, yeah, it's, it's wild that somebody's like, "Oh, we're gonna, we're gonna make this big giant thing." And like, yeah, that's a great idea. And then you're like, but how do we make it move? How do we store it? And then somebody's gotta figure out that problem as well. It's,

Abdulrahman 11:35

Exactly

Branden 11:36

yeah,

Greg 11:36

I, a question for you, Abdulrahman. Um, when you were working in the shipyards and you saw these giant things, um, did it give you an appreciation at all for the importance of safety and how one little mistake could mean someone could lose their life? You know, and big things like that that are so big. I mean, I imagine if that chain fell on a person, it would kill them. Um, or if something broke and things, you know, went flying, it could kill them, right? Um,

Abdulrahman 12:08

Yeah,

Greg 12:09

safety was big there, as well as in a refinery, right?

Abdulrahman 12:12

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like, especially in the introduction or the induction to the internship, they will, give us a safety induction, what are the, the PPEs that you need to have, what practices you need to follow while you are inside the shipyard. that was an introduction to me to safety and, being vigilant and being careful and, be careful where you place your foot, where you place your hand, and so on. So yeah, it was, an experience for me

Greg 12:41

So what did you do there? What was your job?

Abdulrahman 12:44

just to, take notes, listen and l- learn. not much of a hands-on training. Yeah, I, I would say my first, training, let's say in safety was in Babco, like on-job training. Yeah. Yeah, but a- after graduation from university, I applied for jobs, and the, the first job was, in a contractor company for air conditioning. Um, and then, uh, I stayed for around one year, and then another year in a governmental, uh, job. they were not much satisfying to me, so I kept on applying for jobs, and then I was, blessed enough to, get a job in, in Babco. And, uh, yeah, it was really, uh it is an enriching experience for me u- till now, and I hope, uh, it will, uh, remain that way

Branden 13:34

So you, you mentioned doing, uh, a, a, a little bit of time in the upstream portion. let me first start. was it onshore upstream or was it offshore upstream?

Abdulrahman 13:43

No, unsure.

Branden 13:44

Onshore, yeah. So, so we're not deal- we're not talking dealing with boats or platforms or anything like that. So, um, you know, talk about a little bit of the differences that you experienced between the upstream version of, uh, of Babco and now the downstream version.

Abdulrahman 13:58

first of all, the area. when you see the oil field, how, how massive it is and, is one, everything is carbon steel. the, the exploration part is, interesting. my senior project actually university was, to solve a problem with the cooling of the d-drill bits, while, drilling oil wells, especially for high temperature, high pressure, uh, wells. Uh, so that, that, uh, inter-internship in the upstream, um, uh, sector was, was helpful to me to, to, to learn and to understand how drilling works and how exploration works. Yeah

Branden 14:32

yeah. So, so mentioning joining the company, when you started with Downstream, what type of role did you come in as?

Abdulrahman 14:38

I was, uh, hired, uh, s-since the beginning in the inspection, department.

Branden 14:43

Okay

Abdulrahman 14:44

yeah, so, actually that's, interesting because, I remember when I first joined the company as a trainee inspection engineer, I had zero expectations. I had zero expectations about, my role as an inspector. I remember I went the company, all dressed up wearing a shirt and a tie, and I went to the manager and, he was like, "You c- you can leave the tie at home tomorrow because we're, having a shutdown a-as we speak." Yeah. It wa-it was one of the turnarounds, the company for one of the process units. so it was a shock for me that I had no idea that, uh, as an inspection engineer, I would be working a, uh, 12-hour shift, like even weekends, you know, the, the whole deal. so th-that was a interesting shock to me

Branden 15:31

you started right at the beginning of a turnaround?

Abdulrahman 15:34

Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So y- y- you can imagine the, the surprise I had.

Branden 15:40

Oh, man

Abdulrahman 15:42

yeah, And, and even I remember in the interviews some hints were being given, uh, like part of the questions, like, "Would you be, interested in being a welding engineer or a inspection engineer?" And I was like, "No, I'm not interested." Um, but then, know, part of the, the recruitment, is that, you will go through some, interviews, some, quizzes, some exams, then they will, choose the position that is, fit for you. uh, luckily I was selected in the inspection department. and I'm saying luckily because later on I, grew, to really be passionate about this field. And really interesting how I started and, now really, like when I, I come back home and I'm thinking about work and, uh, what things I, I can do, uh, on the next day. a, it's a really interesting, uh, position I am in. I'm really blessed

Greg 16:34

is your focus fixed equipment, rotating equipment, or both?

Abdulrahman 16:39

Uh, fix the code.

Greg 16:40

And yeah, okay, cool. And within that then, as a fixed equipment inspection engineer, what does a typical day in the life of Abdulrahman look like at BAPCO? A typical day

Abdulrahman 16:53

Yeah. when I first, started, as I mentioned, it was a turnaround, but later on when things, got smooth after the turnaround and we started writing the inspection reports, so that was interesting. And then, we went back to the normal, uh, o-on-run inspection and on-stream inspection. Uh, so yeah, it the normal day was to each day go to the process unit, have a chat the operations team, look at what are the inspection activities to be done on, on that day, and, uh, trying to learn about the, the process unit. So I remember part of the training that I went through was to be, um, rotated ar-around the process unit. So starting with the crude units, with the FCCUs, uh, FCUs, and so on. So th-that was an opportunity for me to gradually learn about the, the process and the operation of each unit that, I'm exposed to

Greg 17:46

What would you say the most challenging units are for you there? Um, you know, trying to improve performance, reliability, keep them safe and running. Which units do you find the most challenging?

Abdulrahman 17:59

well, I mean, in terms of, sophistication and the design and the material selection, what the process parameters, what IOWs need to be maintained, I would say the, the hydrotreating, the hydrocracking units. Especially with, with with the variety of materials that you have there, the, the different, uh, operating parameters. It's, really interesting

Greg 18:20

Yeah, I, I'd agree. Uh, the hydrotreaters I find... I'm a chemist by education, and so I find those very fascinating what's going on, especially around the mixing boxes and the hydrotreaters where you're injecting water into the stream, and you get all kinds of things going on at that point, right? Um, I don't know if you found the same challenges there as well. Uh, they can get, you know, a lot going on there

Abdulrahman 18:49

Yeah, exactly. And, s-something interesting that, I came across, when I was reading one of the books about, uh, hydro treating is, that when you see the, the materials of, for example, the, the air coolers of the reactor effluent. And I remember I saw one of the textbooks mentioning that it was made of carbon steel. and the one I see is made of, uh, like nickel alloys, like Incoloy and Hastelloy and, and these exotic materials. And I'm, I'm like how did they use to manage with carbon steel in the previous days? Yeah.

Greg 19:21

Yeah, they probably inspect it a lot more often and hope they'd catch it before it leaked, right?

Abdulrahman 19:25

Yeah.

Greg 19:27

And then they allied up

Abdulrahman 19:28

it's, it's interesting to see how, the timeline o- of things, how it goes, how it used to be designed, how is it designed now

Greg 19:36

Yeah. Yeah. Are you guys using RBI there, by the way?

Abdulrahman 19:40

Yeah. Yeah, we are. We are, d- developing the, the RBI programs, uh, for the, process units. so yeah, w- we went through the D- DMR, process about the, the data collection. We saw the challenges that, uh, could face us and, and, and that, uh, process to collect data with, uh, with all, all of the challenges and data quality and so on

Greg 20:03

Yep. Yeah. It's very, uh, it's a very integrated process. Um, uh, I think that's one of the biggest things that I've realized, uh, or I realized is how interdependent things are and how failures rarely occur because of just one thing, that there's usually a combination of things that, that happen. Um, but, uh, so can you give us an idea and scale what size refinery, uh, are you working in? You know, is it 350,000 barrels a day, 500,000 barrels a day, 180,000 barrels a day

Abdulrahman 20:41

Yeah. So now after the, expansion project and our refinery, the production increased from, uh, 270 to 360,

Greg 20:51

Okay.

Branden 20:52

Wow.

Abdulrahman 20:52

barrels per day

Greg 20:53

That's a lot. Do, do you have a delayed coker there or continuous?

Abdulrahman 20:57

not, not, yet. not yet. Yeah. But, we recently introduced the part of the expansion project, the, uh, the resid hydrocracker,

Greg 21:05

Okay

Abdulrahman 21:05

which, uh, which I understand they're not much in the world. I think it- we are the 11th, refinery to have a resid hydrocracker, uh, in the refinery. So yeah, that, that would be, an interesting learning journey to have this kind of, uh, uh, unit

Greg 21:20

Yes. What are the damage mechanisms you have there that are the most challenging, you think?

Abdulrahman 21:25

I mean, we have a, a journey to learn about, um, more about the, the how it operates, what kind of damages, we would expect to have there. But what I can see, I mean now, is that it's, um, really similar to, to a hard retreating, unit. But, but again, as I said, like, uh, we are still learning. We are still trying to, discover, uh, th- this kind of process. So yeah, it, it would be an interesting experience to have

Greg 21:54

So do you have responsibility for doing like level one and level two fitness for service assessments in your role?

Abdulrahman 22:02

No, it's, mostly p- part of the engineering, department, they are mostly responsible for fitness for service. for sure, inspection, plays a, a vital role in delivering the, the data and all the findings that will help the fitness for service. But as a responsibility is with the, uh, engineering group

Branden 22:22

I just went down a quick little rabbit hole here on, on resid hydrocracking. I'm still, my mind's still working through the fact that you can take resid and crack it, um, to that level. that's online now? That was part of the project, or that's planned to

Abdulrahman 22:36

Yeah, it is. No, no, it is. It is. Uh, and it's, it's really an interesting design how the reactor works in that residue hydrocracker. It's not a, a normal, fixed equipment. It has rotating parts. It has, like, some kind of, pumps, and a mixer in the reactor. So it's really interesting

Branden 22:53

Inside the reactor has all of it. So,

Abdulrahman 22:55

Yeah Yeah

Branden 22:57

huh. So

Greg 22:58

pressure though too a lot of times probably

Abdulrahman 23:01

Yeah, exactly

Branden 23:02

Yeah. Okay. Interesting. was that the big piece that allowed for that, that level of expansion, or did you guys have some other de-bottlenecking as well?

Abdulrahman 23:10

No, we had like, uh, a, a new crude units, a new utilities, hydrogen plants, hydrotreating, hydrocracking units, and the resid hydrocracker is the, I would say the pearl of that, project, yeah

Branden 23:24

Did they involve your, your inspection team at all in any of the project work, uh, planning, prepping, any- anything on the front end side of that? did they include you guys at all?

Abdulrahman 23:35

Yeah, yeah. W-w-we have a, a team that was, uh, from, from our de-department that was involved in the project. so yeah, especially just to, make sure that the project is going according to procedure or the, the quality controls or the, the documentation, the material reviews, the inspection task, reviews, uh, and so on.

Branden 23:55

Nice. That's good. Uh, a lot of times, a lot of times project, uh, teams kind of just take everything and plop it in and here you go now, uh, inspection gets to figure out how to deal with it.

Abdulrahman 24:07

Mm-hmm.

Branden 24:08

So, um, now from the corrosion standpoint, were you brought in or were other counterparts brought in on specific material selection or just review of what was picked?

Abdulrahman 24:17

Yeah, the material selection was, uh, d-done by the consultant, but, as I said, the team that was involved in the project from our end was, involved in reviewing the material selection and, the design and, the inspection plans. Yeah. Yeah

Branden 24:31

Cool. Nice. Yeah, so that had been nice to at least be able to, uh, I-- understand what the plan was gonna look like. Um, 'cause right, I mean, five years from now, you're gonna have a lot of inspections to do

Abdulrahman 24:43

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine that would be, a big, challenge. I mean, would be a big project to do the baseline inspection with all the tremendous amount of, equipment that need to be inspected. It's a, it's a jungle. It's a jungle there

Greg 24:58

I- is it part of your responsibility to create inspection strategies or to approve them, review them? Or is that the inspector that does that

Abdulrahman 25:10

It's part of the inspection, uh, team re- responsibility, but, for sure part of the failure analysis and the failure investigations that we perform, we revise these, inspection plans according to the new findings and the new discoveries about the, the damage mechanisms that are expected on those

Greg 25:28

What, what are your thoughts, Abdulrahman, about, um, for instance, root cause analysis? Um, does Babco have a pretty robust, uh, process for that?

Abdulrahman 25:40

so in the RCA, procedure, we categorize, incidents, based on the impact,

Greg 25:47

Mm-hmm.

Abdulrahman 25:48

of that incident. So according to the consequence, there is a procedure that will determine who should be involved and how sophisticated should, the investigation be. So if it's, uh, of, of low consequence, maybe the inspection engineer or the process engineer would be sufficient to investigate and, provide the necessary, recommendation and the mitigation actions. If it was of something of high consequence, a multidisciplinary team will be formed to investigate and have the inputs from the different teams and, go to the each detail about the incident just to try to, solve the issue from its root

Greg 26:25

Yes. So, so the amount of rigor in the RCA is dependent upon the potential consequence of the failure.

Abdulrahman 26:35

Exactly.

Greg 26:36

Uh, makes sense, criticality based.

Abdulrahman 26:39

Mm-hmm.

Greg 26:40

Uh, I've always felt that a good RCA program is necessary to, to help us learn from, you know, those incidents and then to implement what we learn appropriately. Um, but it's also, I think another way that it's a part of continuous improvement, right? We have different initiatives and programs, whether it's an RBI program or a high temperature hydrogen attack initiative or whatever, uh, how do we gauge the effectiveness of those? Uh, I think, I think RCAs are critical in helping to, you know, for continuous improvement because nothing's perfect, right? When you first implement it, it's probably least perfect and, uh, uh, that's good because I ask that question to a lot of people, and I often get blank stares or, uh, I don't want to go down that road, you know, but I love your answer. That's great

Abdulrahman 27:32

for that reason, I mentioned that the resid hydrocracker will be a journey because, nothing's perfect. we expect to find, some surprises, some issues, in the design. Maybe some material was not selected properly or some integrity window was not, set up correctly. So having that kind of continuous, improvement, programs, having these RCAs, these investigations, will be, crucial to continuously, improve on our, strategies

Greg 28:00

Right. And you mentioned IOWs. Uh, on a scale of, say, 1 to 10, with 1 being, uh, we're just starting and 10 being we have a very robust, effective IOW program, can you speak a little bit about your IOW program, how automated it is or isn't, and how well it's working?

Abdulrahman 28:21

Yeah. So the IOWs, I imagine with, with many, companies is the same, that w-we developed them of the, the RBR study. so the RBR study was, an opportunity for us to do that kind of process systematically. To go through the damage mechanism review and develop the integrity operating windows. so after th-those, i-identification process, we set them up in our system and, it monitors the historian and the operating parameters and, it's able to send an automatic notification based on the excursions that, you would expect. So when the, corrosion engineer responsible for that area receives, that, notification, he would communicate, that, finding with the operator and see how things can be, controlled

Greg 29:11

I see. Yeah. Who owns the IOW program at the plant? Is it operations? Is it integrity? Who owns the IOW program?

Abdulrahman 29:19

No, integrity. Yeah, integrity. So, since the integrity team and the corrosion team were the, the ones to develop those IOWs based on their, knowledge and, experience about the plant, they are the, you would say, the subject matter expert on the topic. Yeah. So they are the most knowledgeable, team to know what is the impact of, that IOW excursion. Why was it, put in place to begin with? What's the importance of that IOW? So it's really important that it's, uh, it's owned by the integrity team, but the most crucial part is the communication. So as soon as an excursion happens, that has to be communicated with the operations team

Greg 30:02

Does it seem to be working well?

Abdulrahman 30:03

Uh, I think so. I think so, yeah. I mean, yeah, that, communication is working well and, it's good for the operator to understand how their, performance in operating that plant, how it affects, the equipment. And, uh, and It's really interesting to see, even for us as Crojan engineers, especially after we developed the, the IW program, when the excursion happens, you would see it firsthand how that excursion affected the condition of the equipment

Greg 30:32

Yes.

Abdulrahman 30:33

I remember in one of the cases, where we had, one of the overheads of the, crude, unit, that we inject, wash water there. luckily we had corrosion, probes installed on the overhead. So, for some reason, the pump of that wash water was, having an issue. It was shut down, that pump. Uh, and we were able to see from the corrosion probe, thickness readings how the corrosion rate changed after we, repaired the pump and we put it back online. And it was really, really interesting to see how corrosion appears and how the relationship between corrosion and operation, how they are strongly linked together. You know, so some people think corrosion is just, you're doing investigations or you're doing inspection. but no, it's not happening in silo. It's, happening in conjunction with everything else

Greg 31:27

Yeah, the thermodynamics are phenomenal, I believe.

Abdulrahman 31:31

Yeah

Greg 31:31

Uh

Branden 31:31

Okay, I got, I got a lot here. Um, first question, how many corrosion engineers do you have at your facility?

Abdulrahman 31:37

Currently we have, five engineers. Mm-hmm

Branden 31:41

cow. Okay. And so, and so each of them is responsible for a certain area

Abdulrahman 31:47

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So j- just to, keep a focus on, uh, on their process on, the type of operation that you have there so that that corrosion engineer will be specialized in that, process. He would know the material selection for that process, what is the expected damage mechanism, and he will look at all the failures, all the history of the equipment. So having that kind of dedication to the complex, is really important

Branden 32:12

Yeah. I, I've been to some facilities that have zero. Um, and so to have five, so, so that's why integrity can own it. that's why corrosion engineering can own the IOWs then is 'cause there's a, there's enough to, um, to be able to manage all the readings that come out.

Abdulrahman 32:29

And the automation helps. The automation helps. So, so having these, uh, like the... I mean, having our, APM software that will, monitor these, excursions and, and sending these, notification re-really helps, the corrosion engineer instead of going to each, unit and looking at, what are the parameters that are exceeding my limits. having that kind of, automatic, notification is really helpful to focus your energy and effort on the things that matter

Branden 32:57

So have you been able to set it up where there's kind of a sensitivity where if it just jumps out the window for a second and back in, okay, we don't really care about that? Is there a time limit? How have you set it up so you don't get... Or how have you, whether it's how you manage your inbox or how do you deal with not being inundated with so many alerts?

Abdulrahman 33:17

Okay. so that would depend on the OOW. some parameters we can live with, an excursion of a couple of hours or a couple of days. Some are not. Some are, are m-more sensitive. So depending on the OOW, we have the policies that measure the duration of the excursion, and accordingly it will decide to send a notification or keep it. Just, uh, record the event, but don't, uh... It's not necessary to send a notification

Branden 33:45

Gotcha

Greg 33:46

And that's based on the criteria, um, and the situation, I assume, 'cause I guess, uh, sometimes you're gonna have to have human intervention. You're gonna have to have a corrosion engineer review it, but at the first level, it has some automa- it has some criteria it applies for automation, and then based on passing or failing that criteria, then the email gets sent to the corrosion engineer to get involved at that point.

Abdulrahman 34:14

Exactly. Yeah, the, the human intervention is a must. we cannot, depend on the policy or on the automation alone. the human intervention is a must. So, the machine, is a helpful tool, but at the end, the corrosion engineer needs to look at the trends. You know, s- he needs to look at the other, uh, parameters and how the interconnection between them, how one parameter affects the other. So you cannot depend, completely on, tools and systems to identify issues. For sure, the human intervention is, is a must.

Greg 34:44

We can't AI that yet, right?

Abdulrahman 34:48

I hope so, but, we have a journey to reach there

Greg 34:51

Yeah. Agreed. Agreed

Branden 34:53

now going back to the, the overhead system there with the, the installed corrosion sensors. I've, I've talked with, uh, sensor companies before, and they've shown me some of the plots. How cool was it to be able to pull up that plot and see not just like your standard point to point like, oh, corrosion happened somewhere in between, but actually to see the line of the corrosion over the course of that period of time? Was it linear? Was it not linear? what did you think about when you were able to finally pull that data?

Abdulrahman 35:20

I, th-that was actually interesting because This was a, recent project as well to install these, projects. So after we installed the sensor for, like, a couple of years, and then we started downloading the data and analyzing them. Uh, so at that point it was purely data. We were trying to look at the data visually, do some, time series segmentation just to calculate the corrosion rates for each segment, each, operational event. I remember when we did the analysis and we calculated the corrosion rate, how it is changing, and then we saw that, a sudden reduction in the corrosion rate from a high to low. And then th-that was interesting. And then we started looking at the operational history and, when we placed the date that that, wash water pump was repaired and, put back in operation, that mark came exactly on the, on that sudden drop of corrosion rate. So it wa- it was, it was really interesting to, to see. it's it's not something that you, deliberately, you forge that, that graph. the facts, they speak to you, and the numbers, they speak to you. You just need to correlate the right parameters and the right information with each other. So having that kind of, context, you cannot depend on the AI or the computer or the software to determine. You need, an experienced corrosion engineer to, form that context and ask the right questions. What parameters is affecting which?

Branden 36:50

Yeah. I mean, very well said. It's, um... Gosh, you guys should do a presentation on that or something. You should find somewhere to, to, to get that out and be able to, to share with people how important... Like, here is a real life, we've seen it, we were just happened to be measuring it, example of how, how IOWs when, you know, done well or not done well, you know, this is, this is what can happen. If you manage them, then this is what you get, and if you don't, you can see here, not that you didn't manage it well, you guys knew what you were doing with, with the pump being down, but if somebody were to allow their, their system to go out of, uh, out of, out of whack, they would be able to see this is what could happen. Uh, it'd be... Yeah, you guys should, if you haven't already, I know a publication place called Inspectioneering that you could probably put it out in.

Greg 37:40

Uh, there are so many interdependencies. Uh, I know I've, uh, I've often looked at it like sometimes you pick up a rock and there's five other rocks underneath it. Sometimes you pick up a rock and there's nothing underneath it, or maybe one rock. Um, and that's where the critical thinking skills and the education and the experience really come to light in their value. Um, yeah, we haven't AI'd that yet, so

Abdulrahman 38:07

Yeah, you know, and s-speaking of like, corrosion monitoring, it's really useful, in terms of... And, and IOWs in general. Like, I... Now I see one of the challenges that we have in inspection is in the confidence in data.

Greg 38:23

Mm-hmm.

Abdulrahman 38:24

so okay, so we do the inspection now, and we calculate the remaining life, the corrosion rate, and we know when is the next, inspection date. But how confident are we that the data will remain relevant till the next inspection? Because maybe now the inspection findings tell me that I can leave the equipment for, six or, or 12 years or te- 10 years. But what happens in between that window is a mystery. So having these kind of corrosion monitoring, sensors, the IOWs is giving you that, clarity on that blind spot. So it's no longer an unknown territory. You know what is happening, and you know what to expect. If you need to revise your, asset strategy or no, we, we are good. The data that we collected, uh, let's say five or, uh, 10 years ago, it's still relevant. So I believe this IOW program and, uh, corrosion monitoring, uh, will really... They are changing the game of integrity programs

Branden 39:25

Yeah. Greg and I were just talking with somebody, uh, a couple months ago and, and they, they made a, an interesting statement. I might have said it on here before, but, um, if, if you had your IOW program dialed in, you were managing them, you knew all, you knew all of them, would you really need an inspection program? it was an interesting thought of like, right? 'Cause it's that link, right, of operations and to- and linking with inspection. If we, if we have our IOWs, if we have the, the DMRs or the CCDs, we know what we should be expecting, um, and we can, we can keep operations in check, uh, then there shouldn't really be, as you said, there shouldn't really be any surprises. The, that data that you have, it should be valid until it's not, right? Until we have an event that causes it to not be valid, and then we go out and do the inspection to then update our, uh, our projections. It was, it was an interesting i- uh, interesting thought experiment that, uh, that they mentioned

Abdulrahman 40:24

it is an interesting thought However, I see that the issue is, again, it's in the confidence and the maturity of the program. So we have the IOW, we know it works, but how, how confident are we? How mature? Do we know that, that we identified all the necessary IOWs? Maybe we missed out some. So, okay, we need to, to have that kind of, again, going back to the continuous improvement and the investigations. So we have the whatever IOWs that we have developed, and all of them are within the limits. But still, when we did the inspection next time, maybe we found some discovery. So we will again revise the IOW that, that, we have. So again, it's the organizational maturity and the, the maturity of the IOW program I think will develop with time. So, I think, yeah, a time will come where we will be more, dependent and we will be confident that what the IOW is telling us, is, is giving us the right information. But I think we are not there yet

Branden 41:30

Yeah, the scary part, right, is, is as it is with any new me- damage mechanism that we find, right? We don't know what we don't know. Um, and I think you said it well, right? if we miss an IOW because we don't know about it just yet, um, then yeah. that's why we gotta keep doing the inspections, so, um. Yeah. Yeah, When I teach, uh, RBI training, I tell people, I say, "You know, if, if we knew the exact day that a failure would happen, we wouldn't be doing inspections. We would just be doing replacements. We would replace that section the day before it failed." But that's why we have inspection. We know what we think are all of our IOWs. We know what we think all of our damage mechanisms are, but it's that unknown, that uncertainty that we need to go out and still at least make sure that we have an idea of what we're looking for, um, and, and hopefully find something before, before something happens.

Greg 42:22

I think he just answered your question you asked earlier, Bran

Branden 42:24

I know, I know, I know. The, the more we talk, the more I realize that, like, you know, everybody kind of just throws CCDs, RBI, IOWs, they put them all together. But I don't know, at least me, it hasn't been until recently I really understand and see how they all support each other and how they all work together, um, to really provide that really good foundation. So you, you mentioned going through RBI and, uh, going through data quality and the DMR process. if you were to go through the process again, would you maybe change how you go about it? Or is there any lessons learned that you thought or anything interesting that came out of the process that you went through?

Abdulrahman 43:08

well, I mean, of the, things that comes to mind is about the data quality. Da-data quality is one of the challenges that face many, many companies. your RBI program is as good as the quality of your data, especially with the semi-quantitative, analysis that you would have. You would rely mostly on data. So, uh, I would say, trying to fix the data and try to improve the quality and how you collect the UT readings, the cracking inspection, the procedures, the qualification of the technicians, how you review the quality. So all the procedures. that would drastically improve the quality and the effectiveness of the RBI study

Branden 43:52

Yeah, it does, right? I mean, garbage in, garbage out. I assume you have a written RBI procedure that you guys follow. I'm also going to assume that you have contractors help support you on implementation. Do you have them go through your procedure and make sure that they understand it?

Abdulrahman 44:07

Uh, even contractors for, uh, NDT

Branden 44:09

Uh, and yeah. Yes. Yes. Do they, do they understand what you're expecting from them so that your team can properly input that information into the RBI?

Abdulrahman 44:19

exactly. I mean, so, so that is why, the APM tool that we use, uh, that RBI study is directly linked to the inspection management and the inspection tasks that are being generated or recommended by the RBI study. So when you have that kind of link, it becomes clear to everybody, including the inspection, the contractor, the technicians, uh, that why am I doing that inspection? So I'm doing some cracking inspection there. why am I doing it? So when you go back to the RBI and you, and you find out that the damage mechanism, for example, is WTH2S, so you understand. when I'm doing, for example, automatic, UT scanning, I understand that here I have some kind of a localized corrosion. maybe I'm taking a few samples of, uh, spot UT. Then I understand it's a general type of corrosion. So, having th-that link, again, as you rightfully mentioned, Brandon, that, everything is interlinked. Uh, inspection with RBI, with CCDs, with IOWs. it's a full process. It's a system that is integrated. So having that integration clear by systems, by softwares that clarify that interlink and having it also clear by communicating with the different, teams and the different, parties that are involved in, in the process, is necessary to ensure the success of the program

Branden 45:47

Yeah. if you had all remade refinery, uh, what would be the first process, system, tool? What would be the first thing that you would implement, uh, to be able to provide a, a high quality, uh, integrity program?

Abdulrahman 46:05

I would say the, the damage mechanism review is the starting point for many, many, processes. if you will talk about inspection, programs, if you'll talk about, IOWs, if you talk about, where to place your corrosion sensors, what RBI study to perform, it all comes out from the DMR. So knowing what to look for, what to expect, that will drive everything you do, after that

Branden 46:31

Yeah. I, I

Greg 46:32

I agree with you too. Yeah. Uh, I think whether you're doing RBI or not, you should do the DMR, right?

Abdulrahman 46:39

Exactly. Yeah

Branden 46:40

Yeah

Greg 46:41

you where to look, what to look for, understand, again, the interdependencies or thermodynamics of the damage. Absolutely

Branden 46:49

I, I think Clay White said the same thing when we had him on. I asked him that question. He said, he said the, the CCD, the DMR, that's really the, the starting point for everything. You- otherwise you're, you're inspecting blindly or you're, um, managing blind

Abdulrahman 47:04

Yeah, and, like people have the, impression that DMRs is, is part of RBI. You don't need it for anything else, but, uh, that's a misconception about DMR. That everything literally depends on the DMR. So otherwise you're just, uh, going blindly into the site and, hope to find something, uh, with the inspection, technique that you are using.

Greg 47:26

I, I would say the DMR is foundational. I don't know if you agree with that or not, but

Abdulrahman 47:31

Of course.

Greg 47:31

it's foundational. Um

Abdulrahman 47:33

it is

Branden 47:34

Interesting. I wanna back up a little bit here. So, so you're a mechanical engineer. You came in as an inspection engineer. What was it that made you take the jump or the leap over to, to corrosion from the inspection side?

Abdulrahman 47:49

Hmm. Yeah. A-again, I was blessed and privileged to, have that kind of rotation, training. I had the privilege of, wearing many hats. So I, I worked with inspection, with, failure analysis, with the MTC, material testing certificates, review, with the contract, development, with NDT planning, and then RBI and, and corrosion. that was, I would say the, the f- the final, uh, stage in my rotation. And, that rotation was really, helpful and I'm really grateful that I went through that, program because it made me realize how interconnected everything is, is that we are not doing a failure analysis in silo. We are not doing inspection in silo. We are not reviewing MTCs in silo. Everything is interconnected. Starting from procurement until, the retirement of the asset. That l-life cycle, uh, uh, requires a system in place that requires the, the input from different teams, from different processes. So I mean, that experience was, useful for me to understand how everything is interconnected, and how one process, delivers, an output, and that output is being used by another process. So wearing those hats in different, seats gives you that understanding and realization

Branden 49:20

Yeah. okay. So, when it came to making that changeover, did you put yourself up to, to move over into that role? Or were you asked to take on that role? how did that work out?

Abdulrahman 49:31

Well, I think, I found my place there, and I was, giving good results. so... and I found my passion in corrosion, RBI, looking at failures, looking at how to improve, our strategies. So I would say it was from both ways, from m- management point of view and from, from my of view

Branden 49:54

Yeah, kinda, it was kinda just the right fit everybody kinda realized. Yeah. what do you think along the way as you've, as you've been working and, interacting with folks, what do you think's been the, the, the skill that has supported you the most? What do you think is the, the, the skill that you have that has allowed you to kind of progress as you have, throughout your career?

Abdulrahman 50:16

Well, one skill that, comes to mind is, critical thinking and, trying to, to think and, to tackle, an, an engineering problem the right way from, uh So when a problem happens We should not look at it, superficially from the outside. we have to dig deeper into the, to the problem and look at the, the root cause. so when I'm, giving a recommendation, is that recommendation really solving the problem or is it just covering up the issue? So I would say critical thinking is o- one of the skills, there. also, one of the skills that, I developed while, uh, my role as reviewing MTCs, was to be familiar with standards and codes and material specification. That was really one of the most, helpful positions because it gave me that opportunity and that curiosity to... So when, the material test certificate mentions, one specification that they are complying with, what do they mean by that? W- what is the, what does that specification, really mean? So, that was one of the skills. I remember for example, that accepting, a test certificate was easy. You would compare the results or the statement of the certificate against, our, uh, item description. if everything is matching, that's fine. But the difficult part or the challenging part was when there is some mismatch, and then I would think a lot before I would say that this, certificate is rejected because sometimes, For that you need to go to the codes. Like I'll give an example. in one of the cases we requested, for example, a flange, of, Schedule 40 complying with ASME B16.5. So we re- we requested Schedule 40, but in the test certificate they don't mention the schedule in part of the description. So I was, leaning towards rejecting that, certificate. But then when I went to the ASME B16.5 and I realized that by default, if the schedule is not mentioned, by default it is Schedule 40, which is complying with our, uh, requirement. So that gave me the realization that I need to think multiple times and read through the code and the material specification and be careful before, I reject, a certificate. So, so that is why that, experience was really helpful for me to familiarize myself with the codes and the standards and, Th- they are not, I would say user-friendly and, it's not a fun read to, uh,

Branden 53:00

Under, understatement of the century right there.

Abdulrahman 53:04

Yeah. remember when I first, joined, during the first, turnaround, and then I saw that we were doing the calculation for the minimum required thickness, and I saw how that formula in ASME section eight was different than the one we studied in university. And I saw that the joint efficiency was one of the factors that goes into that formula. So I started asking what is joint efficiency? And then I started, reading through the ASME, section eight, and it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare, that y- you would start in one clause that will send you to the end of the code and then back to the middle and, and then back to to the beginning. the hyperlink in that, the code is really phenomenal

Greg 53:49

You know, back in the old days, we used to keep this, uh, um, this graphic image, uh, pinned to the wall. I remember Hartford Steam Boiler used to put them out, but it was of a big pressure vessel, and it showed all those interdependencies depending upon the part. Uh, I found those very helpful, but now with computers and everything, it's, you know, it, it's, it's a little easier. But you're right, it's important to be able to weave through the different interconnected considerations, right?

Abdulrahman 54:21

That alone is a skill really, to be patient enough to go through all the references and the hyperlinks, uh, going from one close to the other. that, requires a skill

Greg 54:31

And a good set of engineering practices too, and some tools to go along with that, right? Do you use, uh, the 510, 570 certified type inspectors there, or do you go by a different type of certification? I don't know if it's any British or EU or, or other things

Abdulrahman 54:49

No, we follow the American standards. So we go with the API certificates with the AWS, for welding, certifications. so pa-part of my training, I went through the certification process for starting with the, certified welding inspector for A-AWS and then went to the API five 10, five 70, five seven one, five 80, and, uh, so on. So, uh, yeah, that's pa-part of the, the program and, the code that we are, complying with

Greg 55:21

Yes, yes

Abdulrahman 55:22

organization

Branden 55:23

which one was the least fun to get?

Abdulrahman 55:25

I would say the welding and inspection

Branden 55:29

Why, why is that?

Abdulrahman 55:30

Uh, I don't know. it feels, uh, dry to me. Like, uh, a-a-although, uh, o-one of the roles that I worked with was w-welder, qualification and, uh, welding procedures, uh, qualification.

Greg 55:43

Section nine

Abdulrahman 55:45

yeah, section nine and, again, A-AWS, also refers to section nine and, and other APIs. but, yeah, I enjoyed, the five ten, the five seventy, the five eighty RBI, five seven one.

Branden 56:00

Yeah. Yeah. The g- the guy who, the guy who was reading through section eight thought that the welding portion was dry. That's, that's good. So I g- I take it you don't do any, uh, you don't do any backyard welding or anything?

Abdulrahman 56:15

No, I do.

Branden 56:16

You

Greg 56:16

Yeah,

Abdulrahman 56:18

yeah. that's the, fun part about it,

Greg 56:20

So you

Branden 56:20

type of, yeah, what type of projects do you, do you do?

Greg 56:23

And what type of

Abdulrahman 56:24

most, uh, the type of welding is flux cored, uh, welding. and the most, uh, project that I'm proud of was, my smoker that, that I use to, to smoke, uh, brusque and, you know, all, all types of meats. Yeah.

Branden 56:38

so tell me about this thing. is it a barrel smoker or what? Or I mean, I always had ideas of taking a file cabinet and turning it into one, so what, what did you go

Abdulrahman 56:46

Yeah, I've seen that, uh, hap- uh, done before, yeah. No, but the, the one I have is a, is an offset, smoker.

Branden 56:53

Okay

Abdulrahman 56:54

Uh, actually, as we speak I'm curing a brisket, to make a pa- pastrami, uh, brisket. Yeah, so hopefully the next weekend it will be ready for smoking. But yeah, it feels great to, build such a device and then see it, used in, in practice

Branden 57:12

Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so tell me about it. So it's offset, did you roll the barrel? Did you... Like, tell me, tell me about this.

Abdulrahman 57:19

Okay. So, so, I'm not sure how do you have it in the US, but here we have the water heaters that are cylindrical.

Greg 57:27

Mm-hmm.

Abdulrahman 57:27

Okay? So, uh, I repurposed the, one of the decommissioned, water heaters into the, the smoker. So yeah, so I, I took one small, heater and turned it into the firebox and a bigger one that is the smoking compartment, let's say.

Branden 57:43

Yeah. And then did you go, did you buy the racks or did you, did you weld all the individual, uh, bars together to create the racks?

Abdulrahman 57:51

and, and then for the, let's say the structure or the, legs of the smoker, then yeah, I bought some, square tubes just, uh, for, yeah, to, to build the structure where it will sit on.

Branden 58:01

Love it

Greg 58:02

and the grill itself, did you just buy that or did you build the grill too?

Abdulrahman 58:07

No, the full thing was, made out of, the water heater.

Branden 58:10

Yeah.

Greg 58:11

Wow.

Branden 58:12

Love it. That's awesome

Abdulrahman 58:14

Yeah. that was a, a project that I really enjoyed. By the way, I built it during the pandemic.

Branden 58:19

Ah, I was gonna a- I was gonna ask how long you've had it now. Okay. So we're going on six years. Five, six years now

Abdulrahman 58:25

yeah. Yeah, yeah, and still running, still running

Branden 58:27

Love the... Dang.

Abdulrahman 58:28

You know, staying at home, you become crazy and, you start, uh, building stuff that you don't know that you needed, but, uh, Yeah.

Greg 58:37

very resourceful

Abdulrahman 58:38

was, yeah, a really enjoyable experience

Branden 58:41

were you dabbling in welding work before the pandemic? Or that kind of was, like, the thing that you were like, "I'm gonna learn this"?

Abdulrahman 58:51

Yeah, I brought the welding machine just for that project.

Branden 58:54

Yeah.

Abdulrahman 58:55

Yeah, so that was my, motivation behind going into welding. you know, part of our, uh, university, uh, study we practiced, uh, welding. But, uh, years after the university, you know, during the pandemic, I thought, yeah, I saw this cool thing where you smoke meat and, it, it becomes this tender butter that you can just devour. And I was, I, I was, I was really, really impressed with the, with the thing. I'm gonna do this. So I bought the machine and, and built this,

Branden 59:24

That's great. I'm imagining, so I'm thinking about my water heater at my house, and it's probably five feet tall. how many brisket can you fit on at one time?

Abdulrahman 59:34

Uh, one.

Branden 59:34

okay.

Abdulrahman 59:35

One, one brisket. Yeah, yeah. the, the one I have was, uh, around one meter, so that's around three feet, uh, long. Yeah, so there you can fit one, one

Branden 59:46

One brisket in there. Okay.

Greg 59:47

Uh, are there other welding techniques that you do in addition to flux-core arc welding?

Abdulrahman 59:52

Uh, no, that, that is the one that I have, and, uh, yeah, for me, that is, uh, more than enough.

Greg 59:59

Yeah.

Abdulrahman 59:59

thinking about, about, uh, l-learning, TIG welding, uh, especially for, uh, you know, for, for cosmetic things. It looks nice.

Greg 1:00:07

Yeah, it does. They make pretty welds. Uh, they lay down a good root pass too, right?

Abdulrahman 1:00:12

Yeah. Yeah.

Greg 1:00:13

Uh, so for Brandon, for your, uh, benefit, so he's talking tungsten inert gas welding, which is where you use an inert backing gas, uh, when you're... during the welding process. Uh, that's cool. I wanna do that. I've always wanted to learn to weld and, uh, I just need to do it. You... Maybe you've inspired me here, Abdulrahman.

Abdulrahman 1:00:33

a fun, it's a fun skill, yeah

Greg 1:00:35

Yeah, and I think it's very resourceful. I mean, there's all kinds of things you can do when you know how to weld, right?

Abdulrahman 1:00:41

Yeah.

Greg 1:00:42

You can build,

Abdulrahman 1:00:43

need, stuff you don't need

Greg 1:00:45

Yeah.

Abdulrahman 1:00:45

you can... Yeah.

Branden 1:00:46

Stuff you don't need.

Greg 1:00:47

But that sounds like something you needed with that hot water heater. Uh,

Branden 1:00:51

it. so do you take lunch over for everybody in the, uh, in the department? You know, smoke up a, a brisket on the weekend and slice it up and bring food in, or

Abdulrahman 1:00:59

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's, useful for family gatherings, for friends and colleagues.

Branden 1:01:04

what else do you like to cook? You get- you said brisket. Fun excuse, yeah. Yeah, you like

Abdulrahman 1:01:09

Yeah.

Branden 1:01:09

do you cook?

Abdulrahman 1:01:10

I make sushi at home.

Branden 1:01:13

Okay

Abdulrahman 1:01:14

I do, of course, grilling. I do steak, uh, on the cast iron skillet. Yeah. You know, this kind of, uh, yeah, this kind of meaty, uh, meals. Yeah

Greg 1:01:26

Yeah, yeah. Like a Blackstone. We have those Blackstone things here, you know, that pe- I, I, the steak is really good. I'll- there's something about a steak. Uh, uh, even if I cook it on the grill, I'll still put it on the flat and sear it well there just to... The flavor, right, is different and the texture's a little different. Now I'm getting hungry

Branden 1:01:51

I, I just got a, uh, a, for my parents for Father's Day here, they get, they got me a, uh, one of those thermometers that, uh, connects to your phone. It's like, it's like cheating now. I mean, you, you slide it in. It tells me, it tells me what the temperature of the grill is. It tells me the temperature of the meat. It tells me how long till it's gonna be done. Then it says take it off, and it tells me how long to let it rest. I was like, "This is, this is, like, simple. There's no guessing here. This is great."

Abdulrahman 1:02:18

When, when you go to pellet smokers, that's also another game of cheating.

Branden 1:02:22

yeah, right? It just, it just does it for, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, so what, what type of wood do you use for your, in your box?

Abdulrahman 1:02:28

dry trees that I found in the street, I just cut them down and chop them up and, uh, use them. Yeah. And any, any wild, uh, dry tree, I ensure that it's dry. I'm not environment

Greg 1:02:44

Are, I'm curious, are there certain trees that f- you find impart a different flavor? Um, you know, like over here people try to go mesquite or oak or, you know, certain other things

Abdulrahman 1:02:58

Yeah, I'm not, geeky to, to that point of selecting the

Greg 1:03:03

Wait a minute.

Abdulrahman 1:03:06

But yeah, I know like people they, they appreciate the flavor that the wood, adds to the meat. Yeah. Yeah, but for me any wood is good enough for me.

Greg 1:03:15

Any wood's good wood.

Abdulrahman 1:03:17

Yeah.

Branden 1:03:17

you go. Um, so I got another question for you. What, um, as you've, as your, as your career has kinda gone, gone along here, has there been any, uh, teachers, mentors? Has there been anybody that's really helped support your career and your path that, uh... And, and if there has, how were they able to support you in that?

Abdulrahman 1:03:37

Well, I mean, one is my management. I'm blessed to have, management that are open to listen, you know? as with any company that we have rooms for improvement. So, having that kind of willingness to listen and, hear what is your opinion on things, how they can improve is a blessing. So, that is one. we have a, a great team that are really helpful, and they, try to help, as much as possible on the, development and, uh, you know, having these kind of, debates and, you know, discussions on how things should go forward. So I'm, really blessed having such a team

Branden 1:04:15

Nice. Good. Good. Yeah. having support like that, from a management team is, is really important to be able to help allow you to be able to grow, yourself as well. So that's good.

Abdulrahman 1:04:26

Exactly

Greg 1:04:27

That's a lot more gratifying too, because you get to see some of your ideas implemented and the success that comes from them, I would assume

Abdulrahman 1:04:35

Exactly. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that, that I learned during my, career so far is how to propose change.

Branden 1:04:44

Hmm

Abdulrahman 1:04:45

Uh, because, sometimes not, not all ideas are, they are listened to, but they are not, implemented a-and for a good reason. Sometimes the organization is not ready enough, is not prepared to implement such a change. So then you start revising your ideas, and then you start, asking why is the, the organization not ready yet. So you, you take a step back and, you realize what is the real problem, going back to critical thinking and going to the root cause. so for example, as I mentioned, like some companies, they would resist the, the idea of, transforming their inspection program from a time-based, to a, a risk-based inspection. And, uh, and if you ask yourself for a good reason, they don't have data confidence.

Greg 1:05:31

Mm-hmm.

Abdulrahman 1:05:31

so then, the change changes. It, it's no longer from time-based to risk-based. It becomes, why do I have an issue in the data confidence? So how can I improve my data quality? So having that kind of, feedback from management and how you can, improve, proposals is one of the lessons learned

Greg 1:05:51

Yeah. Yeah, oftentimes it's not just technical, but it's interpersonal skills and communication skills as well. But y- you're right on. I think you're spot on because, you know, so, so often it may be because it's not in the budget or, uh, you know, other reasons. But it's important, I've found, to be patient,

Abdulrahman 1:06:12

Exactly, yeah.

Greg 1:06:13

and understanding.

Abdulrahman 1:06:14

Yeah. And, and thinking s-strategically about things. So we're not trying to fly to the moon in one jump. thinking strategically about things. What are the prerequisites of a certain initiative? So before I jump into that step, what are the steps that I need to take before? So that requires, patience, requires strategic, thinking, and also understanding about the people and, what motivates them, to move forward

Greg 1:06:42

Yeah. Yeah, a lot of times we don't think about how implementing something is going to be disruptive to the people who have to implement it and own it. Uh, and then, uh, and, and of course, it's just is the juice worth the squeeze? But you're right, you have to think about how you reward people and how it's gonna affect them. 'Cause if you just dump something on them on top of everything they've been doing already, and then don't explain the value to them and the value to the company, um, they're, they're not usually gonna do it, or they'll just let it slip, um, right?

Abdulrahman 1:07:19

Exactly

Greg 1:07:20

are there any words of wisdom you'd like to share with our listeners, how you feel to become a really good, uh, inspection engineer and to be a good inspection engineer? I know you've already gone over a lot of those, but is there anything else that you feel like you haven't said that you'd like to share with us?

Abdulrahman 1:07:38

I would say, reading and being curious is really important for some engineer that was just starting in his career. have a plan. ask, somebody to guide you on, uh, how to plan your training and what topics I need to develop and read, through. Because now all the international bodies that develop codes and standards and lessons learned and technical reports such as API, uh, inspectioneering, ASME, like all these institutes and organizations that, do that kind of knowledge retention, they do a massive effort to, record that knowledge and, keep it accessible for, for people to, to read through. So now we're in a time where most of the knowledge is recorded, so nobody has any excuse not to learn new things. So it's just, uh, being curious and asking, the right questions. planning your, training is an important, uh, strategy for somebody who's just starting h-his career in integrity.

Greg 1:08:52

Mm-hmm. Thank you. That was good

Branden 1:08:54

Yeah

Greg 1:08:54

So what's next for you, Abdulrahman? Um, right now you're a corrosion engineer. Um, what are the, the next big challenges you have in front of you, if you could share them, and, and how you're preparing for those challenges?

Abdulrahman 1:09:11

Well, on, a personal level, I try always to, um, improve myself in terms of, uh, qualification, certification. I find that, uh, path to be useful, to learn things in a systematic way. That you, you have a syllabus, you have a set of, textbooks that will guide you on what to learn exactly. So I hope I will never, stop to learn and read. one of the, the steps that I'm at, um, preparing for now is to take the AMPP, Senior Corrosion Technologist, so I'm preparing for that.

Greg 1:09:47

Awesome

Abdulrahman 1:09:48

uh, yeah, as an organization, a- as a team, we are, developing, strategies to move forward. We have a lot of, ground to cover. We have, a lot of, room for improvement. So, we always have these kind of interesting discussions where we, try to identify what to do next and what to do throughout the next five or, or 10 years.

Greg 1:10:10

Mm-hmm.

Abdulrahman 1:10:10

So, uh, we have a lot to, to do, and, uh, I'm telling you like, I'm really passionate about my job that, you can never get bored with Integrity. There's always something to improve, something to do better and, yeah, I'm really blessed in this, uh, field. I never thought I would be in this position, but, uh, I am in Integrity

Greg 1:10:31

Yeah, it's, to me, it's very gratifying having been involved in inspection, uh, since the '70s, to hear people talk about being an inspection engineer. Um, I think that's awesome. Yeah. I think over the years, um, I've seen the, uh, the profession, uh, rise and rise in appreciation and importance, and, uh, it's 'cause of guys like you and other ones like you that, that have a passion for what they do and wanna do a good job, you know? And, and the ability to, uh, to balance both business and safety, you know, because they need one another.

Abdulrahman 1:11:12

Exactly. I would like to share, an experience since you mentioned about business and, and safety. Is that, I remember in, one of the requests that we received as corrosion engineers that, I was asked to review the essay of an opportunity crude. and as we know, opportunity crudes are cheap crudes that are corrosive. They are cheap because they are corrosive. So me, as a corrosion engineer, I was, leaning towards, rejecting that, crude because of the corrosion implications. So I went to my senior at the time, Tomas Ascanio, and he was wise enough to share with me that, what is the issue if that crude is corrosive. It's an opportunity crude, and we are a business. So as long as, it's not giving any safety implication, it's just a matter of finances and looking at the life, cycle of that asset and that crude and what is the re- the revenue be- behind the processing such a crude. So for me, that was eye-opening and going back to the systems and how we as an organization, we depend on each other, and each one plays a vital role that is part of the, the full framework. So as corrosion, it's fine. You need to prevent corrosion. But if it gives a financial benefit to the organization, we should consider and, we should, be careful in our, recommendations

Greg 1:12:33

Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, the, the ramifications, I mean, you know, I'm sure it goes on all over the world, but, you know, decisions to ally up, you know, their equipment so that they can handle the opportunity crudes. But you're right, there are a lot of knock-on effects and ramifications that occur and can occur and, uh... Yeah, it's, it's up to guys like you to figure out what those things are and to give management the information they need to make the best decisions, right? Cause it's the long-term reliability of the equipment as well. It may not lead to an immediate impact, but I think most of the failures I've seen that slipped by was because this accelerated damage occurred, let's say it began occurring 20 years ago, but it only happened maybe two months out of the year, and then we went to a sweeter crude, and we didn't have those issues. But then five years after that, you know, it's this accumulated damage that's occurring over time, and it's rarely linear. Um, and when you go back and look at these things, well, how'd that failure occur, you know? Well, we were circulating sour water in this part of the loop, and it wasn't designed to see that sour water and the corrosion rate goes up by X amount when we do that, but we only do it three months out of the year. But yeah, you've been doing it for 30 years now, you know, like that. But,

Abdulrahman 1:13:55

yeah. And, for that reason, that communication between departments and the corrosion engineer being part of that with the process engineer, with the operation, specialist, having that communication of understanding what is happening in the, the unit and how does that affect the condition of our assets.

Greg 1:14:13

Yeah, and the quality of the inspection data, right? Because so often I've seen people blow off, uh, high corrosion rates, saying, "Oh, that's just an anomaly. That, that wasn't really happening." And later on you find out, yeah, it was happening, you know?

Abdulrahman 1:14:27

Because they don't have the context. The, the context is not there. But when you have that kind of MOC program where you document the changes that are happening, and that is made clear to all the stakeholders of the organization, uh, the context becomes clear to everybody, and how is that affecting the condition

Greg 1:14:45

Exactly. And you just brought up a, a topic I'd like to hear you speak to a little bit before we conclude, is MOCs. Can you give us your thoughts on the importance of an MOC program and things that we might not normally think of as, uh, something that we should apply MOC to? But, you know, if you could speak to that a bit, Dr. Rocklin

Abdulrahman 1:15:08

as I, I mentioned, through our, discussion, regarding the data relevancy that, ensuring that the data stays, relevant. the MOC is a crucial, tool in that regard. So going through these MOCs and, reviewing your asset strategies. If, with this change that we are going to implement, how will that, affect my inspection program, my material selection? Do I need to upgrade the material? And do I need to implement some kind of a chemical program, a chemical treatment? So, uh, yeah. So I believe MOCs goes hand in hand with the IOW program in ensuring that whatever inspection findings we have, builds that confidence in the data that we are collecting

Greg 1:15:58

And, and, uh, of course, up front of that, maybe determining wh- when an MOC is invoked or what, you know, what requires an MOC too, and, and having that, uh, having a corrosion engineer with an excellent inspection background involved in that and a lot of experience, I think is very valuable. Very

Abdulrahman 1:16:17

Exactly. Yeah. And, and so-sometimes, as you mentioned about invoking or triggering, MOCs, that sometimes, people not realize that re-this requires an MOC. And then communication becomes your backup plan. Having that c-continuous communication with the operator, with the process engineer, knowing what is happening, what are the changes that are being done. so maybe things from their point of view doesn't require an MOC, but when you, uh, communicate with them and have a conversation with them, you can guide them that, "No, this has, consequences, and, it deserves our attention and, consideration for a meeting and, discussing this kind

Greg 1:16:59

Yeah. Yeah, precisely. Brilliant. I like, I like that

Branden 1:17:03

Well, anything else?

Abdulrahman 1:17:04

Uh, nothing other than to thank you for the opportunity and for, establishing this, uh, platform. I've been a listener to your podcast since day one. I was really thrilled when, you announced the podcast. Having this kind of community that shares the same passion, was interesting, and all the guests that, that you had on the show they brought a lot of wisdom and insights to the podcast. So I thank you for giving this opportunity to myself personally and to the world, to be accessed to these, kind of information

Branden 1:17:40

We appreciate it. We appreciate you joining. Now you're, now you're one of those, people who's now adding knowledge to the world for everybody. So, uh, we, we appreciate you taking time out of your evening and, uh, sitting down and talking with us

Abdulrahman 1:17:52

Thank you for having me. It's been, uh, real fun

Greg 1:17:55

it was very fun, and I certainly enjoyed it. Thank you for your

Branden 1:17:58

Yep. Awesome. All right, Greg. Well, until next time. Thank you for listening to Upon Further Inspection, a Mechanical Integrity podcast. This episode was co-created by Inspectioneering, and CorrSolutions. Our producers are Nick Schmoyer, Jocelyn Christie and Jeremiah Wooten. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal or professional's advice. Listeners should seek their own qualified advisors for guidance. If you enjoyed this episode. Please join us next time wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until then, stay safe and stay informed.